TheNathan

Ok you have a section of 9 men and you are told to jog around a corner. You have 40-60 lbs on your back, you stink and even though you have ballistic gogles on so shards of stone and glass do not blind you at a bad moment, you swear your freakin eyelids are sweating, cause you keep getting stinging drops on your eyeballs. You have at least 7 spots on your body that are ridiculously hot and red. Head, pits, crotch, behind your knees and feet. That damn radio never shuts up and every now and then you get to hear friends dying. You are dehydrated and probably haven't slept right in at least a week. So in short you are on auto pilot. Meanwhile you live in an environment design specifically to kill you. On rooftops, windows and doors. Around corners and even in manholes are potentially lethal actions waiting to happen. In short by this time you have the psyche of a shut-in but for a living you get to go door to door looking for people who want to kill you. Now Mr Billy, you are out in front of the rest of the platoon and company, right at the FLOT..the worst place on the planet for a guy with flag flashes on you shoulder to be. Then over the radio the call to get your section ass up Al Ackber street right freakin now comes over the net. For a few second you ponder...what the hell is going on? Maybe the boss knows something you don't...all that blue/red force tracking **** is suppose to be foolproof...even thought the Coy SSM thinks it is total crap. Maybe if you get out of this you can get a day job on the other side of the table selling this crap to defence buyers but for now you have to live through the next 10 mins. So like a good leader you take point. At this juncture the vets in the squad know something is up cause you aren't suppose to take point. Their eyes widen slightly..a raised eyebrow here and there. Of course they are just as tired as you are.. "Get the f*ck up gents and follow me" you say cause that is what you are suppose to say. At this point even the FNGs are starting to look a little nervous. You give the hand signal to move at the double..no ack ack formation or street crossing drill..just move now..with a purpose. Your guys are well trained and drilled, they don't ask or bitch. They ensure their rifle straps are secure around their arms, safety off. Each mag they have has a tracer round every 10th round so they know when they are Winchester when the last one goes..the vets actually have armour piercing every round because they know that steel jacket **** will shatter on these damn "mud and stone" buildings. This is all happening in about 2-3 seconds. Against your better judgement you bolt around the blind corner. At this moment in time...this thing is the hardest thing you have ever done and will be until the next time you have to do it. You slowly saunter to open ground, spotting the Syrians soldiers a mere ten feet away! Your training at Fort Battlefront immediately kicks in and you slowly begin to turn towards the enemy squad but alas, it is too late. You are cut down just as you were about to face them with your entire body, suggestively raising your gun as if you were you contemplating the moral implications of killing another human being. You hit the ground hard, head lolling over to get a glimpse of your squad. You say "Avenge me, keep on moving no matter what, nevermind the Syrians ten feet away." Being big hulking manly vets with all sorts of awesome attributes the narrator bestows upon them they give you a nod. Sadly, they think you are saying "Ice cream across the way... it's free" as the AK fire tends to drown out everything. One by one the men run in a gleeful fashion over to the ice cream, but only 7.62 (Or alternatively 5.45)mm death awaits them. They run over each body one by one for the ice cream in their single minded pursuit of frosty, sweet deliciousness to try and beat the scorching heat. [ September 08, 2007, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: TheNathan ]

Bradley Dick, King of the Dicks!

Spoke to soon I guess, the hard copy just arrived about an hour ago and was in perfect condition.

Still no e-mail about the game being shipped, which is odd since I live in the northeast United States. I ordered the thing on August 6, so should I be worried?

RT with A LOT of pausing. Normal RT is simply too fast paced to adequately manage the soldiers, and WEGO is a miserable wreck which is only worsened by the presently poor TacAI and pathfinding.

Speaking of PC Gamer, when are they slated to review CMSF, if at all?

I myself bought CMBO because of the stunning review PC Gamer gave the game, or rather my parents bought the game for me as I was barely 16 at the time, I believe.

Wouldn't count on it, I think it's well outside the capabilities and scope of CMSF with the exception of Army Rangers

No, CMSF is actually a good game at its core, just needs some refinement. My main concern was whether or not Battlefront will be able to carry on to make better games, which I'm sure they can. To go back to the Brigade E5 example, the devs left us high and dry as far as patches goes, at least Battlefront has the decency to fix the game as opposed to Apeiron. Also, for the love of God Steve, make the next modern/future game something epic. Please, China, Iran, Vietnam, Korea, Nato vs. Warsaw Pact, Earth Federation vs. Selene or Mars, Space Lobsters vs. Moon crabs. As tricky as the Syrians can be, they are still like ants against anyone who knows what they are doing.

Which makes one wonder if the mainstream is becoming less and less accessible for games like CM due to decreasing standards among mainstream games and gamers, with reviewers and suits taking a front seat in driving the hand basket on it's way to hell. Anyway, what is particularly troublesome is the prospect of future sales being hurt as a result of Battlefront taking a hit from a large portion of reviewers ripping the game apart. I understand there were always a few people who didn't get the game, but scores among credible review magazines and sites never dipped below 70%, and the vast majority were in the mid 80s and above. This is the first time where the majority of reviewers and fan opinions are in the negative. As for the EA releasing buggy or unfinished games stuff, yes they can do that because they are a huge company which can sell in huge volume and takes hits due to the sheer amount of capital they have. Smaller companies can't afford to use this brute force strategy as their tools are quality and credibility, not sheer size.

This might be especially bad since isn't CMSF supposed to be Battlefront's bid for the mainstream market? From what I understand, reviews can heavily influence the mainstream market, and a deluge of negative reviews for what was essentially a pristine franchise means a generally bad opinion of the game in the mainstream, right? This might be further worsened by the fact that the niche market, in this case wargamers, are driven primarily by credibility/word of mouth and then reviews. With this fiasco going on, it many wargamers seem to be wavering in their support for battlefront's recent product, thus damaging Battlefront's credibility somewhat. I mean, as much as I'd like Battlefront to come out unscathed after all of this, I don't think it's going to happen as the first impression can be, and often is the most crucial one. It's very hard for anything to get off the ground, nevermind become popular, if the first steps have faltered.

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but I was curious as to what the forumgoers or Steve thinks of the current situation regarding the largely lukewarm reviews. Will some reviews give a second opinion when the game is finished after whatever number of patches it takes? Or will these reviews essentially be there forever despite the improved quality of the game, to deter future mainstream/casual gamers from a potentially incredible gaming experience. I know some people (Such as I) couldn't care less about reviews, as I frankly don't think many of them know what the hell they are talking about half the time. Take Brigade E5 for example, had some bugs and was poorly translated (This was fixed by the fans, btw) but the combat and feel of it was simply the best squad-based tactical wargame since Jagged Alliance 2. So, has the game been hobbled by the reviews and will essentially stay very much niche, or will the bad reviews merely roll off the title leaving the game's credibility intact?

Uhm... Quick link I found about the game "An unrelated video game of the same name was released to poor sales in 2002; it was the precursor of Eric Young's Squad Assault."

What distresses me most is that while the forum-goers will stick around for the patches that will inevitably make the game what it was supposed to be in the first place, the negative reviews have already delivered something of s gutshot to CMSF. Seeing as that the people who inhabit this forum are in the vast minority (According to Steve) and the rest are the hidden majority who have probably never set foot on these forums and will not check for patches in the future, the game may look like a giant flop by those who are only being exposed to the reviews and are not reading the explanation being provided by Steve, nor the promises that the game will be fixed in successive patches. The reviewers, in theory anyway, have dealt a fatal blow to the game by trashing it en masse, and in the reviewing business (At least from what I have seen) they tend not to take back bad reviews even if the game is fixed at a later date. It wouldn't be the first time a game has had high hopes and some amount of hype, only to release an unfinished version of the game and be utterly ripped apart by reviewers with no hope of redemption. The case of Battlecruiser 3000AD comes to mind, though CMSF is nowhere near that level of bugginess and Derek Smarts dev arrogance puts him into a league of his own. The game was initially ripped apart by reviewers and casual fans alike due to high expectations and an extremely rough product. Only the hardcore remained to see the series of patches and major overhauls that made the game actually playable, of which the final version was actually rather fun IMO. But still, the reviewers ripped the game apart to the extent that the game is synonymous with complete and utter failure, and Mr.Smart has become something of a internet meme for dev insanity. The reviewers do not do take-backs, and their verdict is often etched into the minds of the casual fans, and lurking in the back of the minds of the hardcore. And this is what distresses me the most about the whole CMSF fiasco. I've been a fan of CMBO and Battlefront since about 2000, and have been lurking the forums on and off ever since then, so I'm among one of the more hardcore of the CM fans. The very prospect of Battlefront taking a blow as heavy as this seems to be is saddening as it holds some danger of spiraling into the CM series crashing and burning, or Battlefront taking a credibility hit. I just hope Battlefront can weather the storm and comes out of this OK.

FYI, regarding Operation Flashpoint there wasn't some kind of no money gap between the initial release of Operation Flashpoint and Arma. Between these two releases there was Operation Flashpoint: Red Hammer and the hugely popular Operation Flashpoint:Resistance, the latter of which hyper-powered the modding community as near 90% of the mods and scenarios require Resistance. Arguably, in order to take part in the modding community you had to buy Resistance or Operation Flashpoint Gold Edition.

I think dalem, as well as others, are merely venting their frustrations and disappointments regarding a game we all had higher hopes for. I'm also guilty of this myself, though to a much lesser degree than some of the people who have been posting as of late. But even considering the most sour of these individuals, I think it would be a disservice to all involved if they were to keep their opinions to themselves. This is an open forum after all, and it is here so we can all read each others opinions, as well as tell Steve and the rest of the Battlefront team how we feel about their games. Do I agree that Battlefront is doomed and CMSF is the worst human tragedy since WW2 (Or American Idol), absolutely not. I think it's a great game at it's core, with some rough spots due to being an early version (What game is perfect at first release?) and a bad setting (Syria sucks IMO, but this is easily fixed with user made scenarios and campaigns). I also think that to some extent people are stating their disapproval as a way to try and sway Battlefront to change some game features in future releases. I'm not sure if this will work entirely, but if the public opinion is any indication of future sales, Battlefront may change some things in future CMx2 titles to avoid future **** storms.

Maybe, maybe not. In all honesty Medieval 2 Total War is basically Rome Total War with better graphics and some new features, yet nobody ditched Med 2 simply because Rome Total War was modable, if anything most mods for Rome are moving to Med 2 for very tiny enhancements. Even if true, CMx1 has essentially run the full course of it's lifespan and sales might be reinvigorated if some true modding ability was put into the game. I highly doubt that even if a modern Cmx1 was made by mod devs it would detract from CMx2 in the slightest as 1, CMx1 doesn't really strike me as being very well suited for a modern setting, and 2, they really are two different kinds of games.

I've also heard that a large amount of modability in games actually increases sales over the long-term, and can increase the fan-base as people start making mods that essentially widen the narrow focus the game originally had. I've even seen some communities (Rome and Medieval Total War, Freelancer, UT2004, Half-Life 1 and 2, Civilization III) where many people will buy the game just for a mod or handful of mods. Hell, I bought Unreal Tournament 2004 exclusively for the purpose of playing Red Orchestra.

Don't know what to make of the most outspoken of the critics on some of these boards, frankly. On one hand, as Dorosh pointed out, there are some valid arguments such as poor LOS/TacAI, broken QB, lackluster WeGo, no clean pause feature, and (My personal complaint) bad setting. But the sheer aggressiveness and hostility of some of these very same people not to mention the doom and gloom atmosphere of places like the Blitz right now smack of dramatics and a good measure of grog angst. Yeah, the game is extremely rough and has a bad setting, but the core gameplay is great and Battlefront seems fairly determined to fix whatever is truly wrong with the game. Howwver, and this is quite important, the dedication of a fan-base is not guaranteed by any form of logic and reasoning you can throw at them, nor can their loyalty be assured if you don't provide them with what (roughly) they want. People in the entertainment business are sort of slaves to their product and their market, making it easy for an individual to fail merely by following their own creative wishes. Is this the case right now? Not sure, as it's too early to tell. While, in my opinion, the game merely needs some work to bring out the great game underneath. However, most fans are far more fickle than I or some of the more level-headed on this forum and this alone will not guarantee that they will be back if their expectations do not match up with the product provided. If the opinions of the wargaming community are any indication of what the market's opinion is, then Battlefront may be in some stormy seas as far as further sales go. If not, and all the wailing and gnashing are simply the frustrations of a vocal minority, then Battlefront may be right after all. [ August 15, 2007, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: TheNathan ]

A BTR-T would also be nice.

Agreed, Joch, Iran would likely be a much tougher nut to crack than Iraq or Syria. Would be interested in playing that scenario of yours, though. I'd be very interested in seeing what the Syrians are really capable of.

From what can see from the CIA World Factbook and Global Security, Iran is quite a bit more powerful than Syria, having a more powerful economy, similar levels of current manpower (OR slightly even more), a larger population, and vastly more beneficial terrain for a defensive war. This is huge, as while the Syrians may be just as good (They seem pretty damn awful in CMSF) their strategic situation is absolutely abysmal and they have nowhere near the staying power of Iran strategically, and by extension tactically.

Why damn, I never thought about the blue vs. blue option for airpower, that's a very clever work-around.

Sadly the red side doesn't have any airpower at all, completely nerfing a good deal of potential scenarios like the Iran-Iraq war. Closest I have figured out is assigning airpower to blue side before switching to red vs. red. This gives one side American airpower that they can use (I think) but the other side (true red) is high and dry. I had to substitute an Apache for a Hind in this Tonali scenario I'm making, but they are really two completely different aircraft and it really doesn't seem right.

Ah, good news then. I wouldn't mind making a few scenarios and maybe a campaign or two based on an Iranian conflict. The Syrian conflict is, IMO, disgraceful and ill-conceived and the game would be done far more justice with a proper war like an Iranian conflict. Once I get done with this Tonali Island scenario conversion I'm doing (Red on Red in an African shanty town) I'll do some research on the Iranian army and whatnot. Any of you fine fellows here happen to have any solid info on their capabilities or any links to some papers involving an Iran situation?