Wartgamer

I agree that many large bombs and even certain mortar bombs can produce a very fine fragmentation spray. This is typically when there is very thin walls in the HE container. But to get a 'mass' kill like the german's in firing positions described above, you would still need a 'bracketing' by many bombs. These small fragments quickly scrub off thier velocity over distance. So a TOT could have been the device that created the kills. And for those that may have thought the Mach effect irrelevant; just as bombs can attain greater shock waves due to reflections, they can be additive with each other. I suppose that I thought that was obvious. So Mr. Salt should get access to the Internet, a hand calculator, or moderate knowledge before calling 'Bull****'. [ April 09, 2005, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

The US would use combinations of fuses for the different firing batterys. Some Airburst, some PD and some delay. The total effect is being surrounded by shells exploding all about. The resulting interaction of the shock waves can be additive. While fragmentation is a greater slayer of troops in the open, blast is really needed to get to troops under cover also. And blast will bounce people out of thier holes. I can recall one account where a German 75mm tank uses HE directly at a single soldier in a small foxhole. It repeatdly gets near misses and he is flung out each time and has to roll back in before the tank reloads. [ April 08, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

13.4.1.1 Another aspect of overpressure occuring in air bursts is the phenomenon of Mach reflections, called the "Mach Effect." Figure 13-5 portrays an air burst at some unspecified distance above a reflecting surface, at five successive time intervals after detonation. When a bomb is detonated at some distance above the ground, the reflected wave catches up to and combines with the original shock wave, called the incident wave, to form a third wave that has a nearly vertical front at ground level. This third wave is called a "Mach Wave" or "Mach Stem," and the point at which the three waves intersect is called the "Triple Point." The Mach Stem grows in height as it spreads laterally, and as the Mach Stem grows, the triple point rises, describing a curve through the air. In the Mach Stem the incident wave is reinforced by the reflected wave, and both the peak pressure and impulse are at a maximum that is considerably higher than the peak pressure and impulse of the original shock wave at the same distance from the point of explosion. Using the phenomenon of Mach reflections, it is possible to increase considerably the radius of effectiveness of a bomb. By detonating a warhead at the proper height above the ground, the maximum radius at which a given pressure or impulse is exerted can be increased, in some cases by almost 50%, over that for the same bomb detonated at ground level. The area of effectiveness, or damage volume, may thereby be increased by as much as 100%. Currently only one conventional pure-blast warhead is in use, the Fuel Air Explosive (FAE). Of course, all nuclear warheads are blast warheads, and on most targets they would be detonated at altitude to make use of the Mach Stem effect.

TOT arty fire other benefits besides catching people in the open. The actual concussions will be so close together that the overpressure would be magnified. In the case of large shells combined with many smaller shells, the victems can be tossed off the ground and vulnerable to fragmentation saturation. Slow firing guns like 8 in or 240mm were therefore magnified by this synergistic approach. TOT's would be spaced evenly (not just one strike but actually 'back-to-back' strikes). This would force defenders to run back to cover, wait while nothing happens, reoccuppy positions, and then get another dose. One report suggests 10 minute intervals. This actually saves shells. TOTs were certainly destructive fire missions. They were dangerous to friendlies also. The US radio/communications ability, combined with very good FM radios, enhanced the ability of the US artillery system.

Similar incompleteness marked the fortifications on D Day. On the east coast of the Cotentin, strong points and resistance nests were spaced about 875 yards apart; between the Orne and Vire Rivers they were 1,312 yards apart. [103] Most of them were field fortifications, sometimes with concreted troop shelters and sometimes embodying concrete gun casemates. Of the installations in the 352d Division sector only 15 percent were bombproof; the remainder were virtually unprotected against air attack. [104] The fortifications had no depth whatsoever. According to the commander of the 716th Division the forty to fifty fortified resistance centers in his sector were beaded along the coast like a string of pearls. [105] Generalmajor Horst Freiherr Treusch von Buttlar-Brandenfels, OKW operations staff officer, had warned after his inspection trip of Normandy defenses in January that if the enemy broke through one strong point there would be a gap of three or four kilometers into which he could advance unhindered. [106] The abandonment of the Zweite Stellung meant that to a large degree this condition still prevailed in June.

You can give a FT a fire order, pause, and then a sneak order (away) from the enmy. Hopefully attack from a position that will allow the sneak-to spot to be some kind of cover.

It does seem weak certainly. The rate of fire is also TACAI controlled. Realistically, it should open fire for destructive effect with expenditure of ammo against vulnerable targets, and then switch to shorter bursts against many targets once the enemy is pinned. Not sure if Jason's new attritionist theory should base itself on the game in that case. Using D Day beaches as an example is odd also. I guess since this is 'Tips'n'Tricks' he is showing people how to take advantage of the non-realistic game effects.

The Finns that fought as volunteers for the Germans disbanded thier 4th company and divided up the MG platoons and mortars amongst the battalions companies.

But the CW knew better! 50mm was the shiznit.

The German 81mm did have a heavy round similar to the US 81mm HE heavy round. I wonder if these rounds could have been mistaken for 120mm mortar rounds? This could explain the reports about so many 120mm mortars. The tube production of 120mm:81mm is about 1:5.8 in 1944. Ammo is about 1:9.4 or so. 120mm production was much greater than infantry gun production.

The Soviets appeared to have made many more mortars than they needed. They may have stopped/cut-down production to concentrate on ammo production. It would be more telling to see that 50mm mortar ammo was stopped at some time during the war. German medium-heavy mortar production showed a rapid increase during 42-43-44. Likewise, ammunition also increased. The Germans did cease production of 50mm mortars and ammunition in 1943. I would imagine that the Soviets also ceased ammunition during the same period. The Germans did use the weapon on the western front in 1944. I would imagine the Soviets would issue it to second line units also. The Germans produced a variety of 120mm HE rounds as well as typical 81mm HE and a heavy 81mm HE round similar to the US model. Mortars definetly moved towards more range or bigger bangs.

The German ATGs used shields with twin plates and generally had sloping sides. http://www.armorfortheages.com/PAK%2040%20page.htm They must have done this for a reason. And if brackets move then certainly the mass attached to the bracket moves. And it has momentum.

Final Protective Fires, where non-stop firing occurs, is usually the domain of a water cooled MG. In most situations where you want the enemy to 'walk' through the 'stream', you are not firing that long. Typically a small group (squad/section) will be seen rushing a distance. You aim ahead of them and keep the aim there. If you hit one or two of them or your tracers are sensed by them, they will usually go to ground. If they do not, pick another line ahead of them and repeat. Anything else you hit/supress along the line is just lucky gravy. In the case where they are coming directly at you (perpendicular line), you are best off firing short bursts at individuals. The sMG42 (tripod) was not a dud. The MG42 bipod was perhaps a misapplication of a platoon GPMG in the squad automatic role. The MG42 bipod could perform the above drill better than most slowly firing magazine fed SAW. [ March 30, 2005, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

The US 60mm will hopefully benefit from the modeling of realistic communications in cmx2. The US use of the scr536 allowed these mortars to fire like a battery. http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/60mm.html Interesting 60mm info http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/index.html [ March 30, 2005, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

A 1919A4 weighs about 30 pounds and its tripod about 12 pounds. 300 round ammo boxes prob weigh around 25 pounds. If it fires 60 rpm for 30 mins thats close to triple the guns weight in ammo. The 60mm mortar is actually a lighter weapon due to its breaking down to 3 loads; tube, bipod and plate. Its ammo is also heavy and bulky though. The mortar weighed 42 pounds assembled and the ammo was 3 pounds each. If it fired 6 rpm for 9 minutes thats almost 4 times the weight of the weapon. [ March 30, 2005, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

Modern 60mm mortars use proximity/multisetting fuses and are much deadlier than WWII varietys.

The US 1919a4 30 cal could fire 60 rpm for up to 30 minutes under most conditions. This is about as long as most CM scenarios. It was supported in the company through a platoon org that could resupply it. Water cooled MGs can put this to shame. I have read of 10,000 an hour, maybe 1/3 the cyclic rate. But they are so cumbersome and vulnerable to attack that they are very defensive weapons. I just read a vets account where he was using the M1917 water cooled in the bocage and his gun gets blown up. The water jacket on these things are very vulnerable (perforations) and the actual barrel inside is very light. The vet gets a air cooled gun as a replacement and he melts it down because he trys to fire it like a 1917. No one told him he couldnt. But a water cooled gun needs much more supply than any air cooled weapon. The weight of ammo that can be fired in minutes makes it almost an arty piece. Its no light load itself either. 10,000 rounds weighs something like 700-800 pounds. The US would assign up to half the Battalion HMG to units in the Battalion. The Battalion heavy weapons company was more like a support unit than a storm unit. [ March 29, 2005, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Wartgamer ]

And it would be best if the outer plate was actually not face hardened but rather 'gave' with the penetrator. The plate has a much larger mass than the round. Having the round actually 'move' the whole assembly forces it to lose energy. It is not just deforming the bracket, it is fighting momentum. I also theorize that the penetrator upun passing through the first plate rapidly loses its angular momentum. This 'spin-scrub' yaws the projectile after it passes through. I used a piece of paper to confirm that it was indeed yawing. That is, before striking the next plate. I am surprised no one came up with the idea of a 'shopping-cart' type of armor. Basically it would be nothing more than a 'trailer' that would attach to the front of the tank. It could have steel wheels like a shopping cart (not steered just conform to direction of travel). The cart would have armor that is sloped sort of like an arrow shape (like the front of a JSIII). When not used as armor, it could be trailed behind the tank for road marches (wheels get locked) and could be used to carry fuel. When used as armor, water is substituted into the tanks instead of fuel. This would further destabilize penetrators. It might also act as a mine-detonator.

The US 60mm mortar was a company level weapon grouped in a weapons platoon typically in a leg unit. It had much greater range/indirect fire capability. Most of these weapons are more like grenade throwers. The Germans did reissue 50mm mortars in Normandy. They and rifle grenades were often mentioned as being very useful in attacking in the bocage.

The plates just had foam blocks at the ends to act as standoffs. The bullet still went through an air gap and no foam. The projectile loses velocity from: 1. Penetrating the plate. The 1/2mv^2 component. The penetrator scrubs velocity as it goes through the plate. 2. From Momentum transfer. MV=mv. I know the plate moved btw. I used a tell tale device. In a rigidly mounted armor system, like a panther hull, everything is more or less fixed. In some spaced armor applications, the attachments are not nearly as fixed. The Panzer III and Panzer IVs with armor packages are examples. Bullets are generally much 'softer' than typical AP antitank rounds. Ive fired bullets at glass windshields at sharp angles and they can ricochet.

The US 60mm mortar was issued at platoon level in arm inf because they had a vehicle to carry the ammo. The more mobile nature of halftrack infantry allowed better dispersion of weapons. In some leg inf units, only 2 of the three 60mm mortars would be fielded and the third mortar-less crew was used as ammo carriers/resupply. This was because the terrain was too tough for the jeep/trailers. Mortars just use ammo too quickly and it is better to have more ammo than tubes. The range of the 60mm mortar over many 50mm class weapons makes it a company weapon system.

I guess thats the spin but I would much rather have the guys firing MGs over my head be part of my own company. Specialized weapons, like TDs or Flamethrowers or what have you, do not need to make a showing every battle, but MGs are core infantry weapons.

The point is comparative information for those that like to see other weapons. Not everyone has your unregurgatated data so I shared this data. 457.2 meters btw

Projectiles Needs To Screen A 500 Meter Front Mortar Bomb weight Filling weight Range Bombs/min 2-in 2 lb 1 lb HCE 470 yd 9 3-in 10 lb 1½ lb WP 1700 yd 10 - 2½ lb HCE 6 4.2-in 21½ lb 5¼ lb WP 6

Bullets can destroy the armored glass vision devices, sights, rubber on road wheels, antenna. Ive fired bullets at steel plates (copper jacketed vs steel) and they seem to be very susceptiple to the angle. Slope would seem to dfeat them much easier than a solid steel penetrator. I would guess this is because the point of the bullet deforms (blunts) and the round is rapidly trying to force a larger portion of steel out of the way. Many of the bullets yaw when faced with multiple plates. That is, they penetrate one plate 'clean' but attack the next plate flying sideways and left a large 'key-shaped' dent. I did this to test spaced armor. A rifle bullet that can penetrate two steel plates back to back had problems with the same two plates seperated by a air gap. The air gap was fixed in one test (spacer with clamps) and in another test, the distance was set by using foam blocks. The foam block spacer method showed the best protection. I theorize that the penetrator lost momentum as it not only lost velocity from penetrating the first plate. It loses momentum because the first plate would have actually 'moved' as the foam gave way. Any spaced armor that had 'flexible' mounts would show these same tendancies.