Aragorn2002

I was hoping to prevent this, Altipueri, by seperating the realistic political/strategical situation from the more or less realistic political/tactical situation. I must admit I didn't expect much of it, but at least I've tried. I was hoping to get an educated guess of how the fighting at the Eastern front would have developed in some detail. Ah well.

No, I don't care much about the inner dynamics of the Grand Alliance, it was a marriage of dark convenience at best and proved to be a miserable one too, which brought death and misery to the whole of Eastern Europe, especially after 1945. A shameful period for both Britain and the US. The Germans continued to fight because there was no alternative and would have continued to do so until the bitter end, but in my facile simplification with more units and resources. I do not believe the Red Army was invincible, another year of desperate, merciless fighting would have cost them dearly and Stalin would perhaps have been tempted to make peace. Let's not forget the Germans weren't complete idiots, not even in 1944/45. They've resisted the largest armies the world has ever seen for years and years and made them pay for every inch of ground. And millions of Germans and others would lose their lives, no matter what. I would suggest reading 'Orderly and Humane: The Expulsion of the Germans After the Second World War' by R.M. Douglas and 'Iron Curtain: The Crushing of Eastern Europe 1944-56' by A. Applebaum, for starters. Btw the situation I've painted is based upon chapter 10 of Peter G. Tsouras' book 'Third Reich Victorious, alternate decisions in WW 2', called 'Rommel versus Zhukow, descision in the East 1944-45'. Not totally acceptable, but interesting enough.

Indeed. And one can decide to take part in it or not, based upon that judgement.

But would it have prevented the Germans to fight on for another year or so? Let's not forget that capitulation never was an alternative, because of the terrible revenge the Red Army had in mind for Germany, which would cost millions and millions of Germans their life and possessions.

Yes, but what would have been possible? The march to Berlin in the first half of 1945 showed how bloody and costly it was for the Red Army. Would half a million of men and some thousands of tanks on the German side have made a difference? An Ardennes offensive in the East would have been suicide, yes, but what if those forces would have been used to bolster the defence at the Oder? Apart from that and without being too optimistic about what a ceasefire in the West would have meant for the East, it is reasonable to assume that it would have improved the German defensive options there.

Not aimed at you.

I'm not interested in what Roosevelt and his pro-Soviet ambiance thought or how Uncle Sam singlehandedly won the war or how many US trucks were delivered to the Red Army. I'm interested in the military options the Germans still had left in the autumn of 1944 in a tactical sense. It wonders me how difficult it is to raise an interesting question here at this forum, without it being smothered in sarcasm and vague accusations of apologism or revisionism. I'm sick and tired of that.

I agree with all of this. But what if the Germans could have controlled their blind belief in offensive actions and would have chosen a sound defensive doctrine, as you mention, with deep defensive networks and carefully chosen counterattacks with armoured units? At Lauban and Bautzen they proved to be still able at that. It can't be denied that the Germans made it a lot easier for the Russians to reach Berlin, by time and again sending their best units to other sectors of the eastern front and other stupid decisions, like Courland for instance. Would it have made much of an impact if they had used their last resources differently? I'm not talking about a German victory, or even a standstill, but about prolongation of the war. Although Russia's armed forces where in much better condition than those of the Germans, they were also running out of manpower (although they probably would have found a way to solve that by more thorough mobilisation). Could a fanatical German defence and even higher losses have brought Stalin to the conference table? Is that even imaginable? ChappyCanuck, no, it doesn't. Many books have been written about historical events with other outcomes. A French victory at Waterloo for instance. It is fascinating for those who study history. I agree of course with what you say about Churchill and Roosevelt. Of course I realize that I'm sticking my neck out with a hypothesis like this, but it really interests me.

Now we are counting the days until we go back to our beloved Eastern front I would like to ask this forum what would have happened if the Germans had managed to arrange a ceasefire in the West in the summer/autumn of 1944 and would have been able to concentrate their forces in the East. I'm not suggesting the Germans could have stopped the Red Army and I know a ceasefire in the west would have been extremely unlikely, even after a succesfull 20th of July. I'm also not interested in the political aspects of such a situation, merely in the military consequences and possible/likely operations in the Baltic, Poland and Rumania. All I would like to know is how the fighting would have developed. Would the Germans have been able to transport enough reinforcements to the Eastern front to delay or stop the Russians, would Stalin have stepped up the pace etc. I'm studying this hypothesis now for a year or so and find it hard to draw conclusions, perhaps you can help me to draw a picture of how the end of Germany would have looked like. Personally I think defeat would have been inevitable, but no doubt it would have cost the Russians even more casualties and a couple of months more fighting. Conditions for this scenario are roughly: Hitler is dead, Rommel has taken over and sweeps away Himmler and the like, Germans will withdraw from Western Europe asap, Western allies agree to an immediate ceasefire, both Germans and Russians are exhausted after heavy fighting and huge losses following operation Bagration, so the front is stabilizing more or less like it did in the autumn of 1944, German weapon production is at it's peak, Finland decides to stay in the war for another while after significant German deliveries of antitankweapons and assault guns and Rommel throws everything he can find to the east. What would probably have happened and how?

Damn you, Erwin, judging by the title of your thread I thought this was THE announcement...;-D

Great job, Bram. I remember visiting the museum at Overloon, especially that Panther made a huge impression upon me. Ga zo door.

That maps has a great atmosphere about it. Very nice. Glad to hear the map editor isn't as hard to work with as sometimes said.

Nice job, Kensai, much appreciated.

It is 'slightly' off topic but perhaps somebody can help me with the following Eastern front picture. It is a picture of two German soldiers, dressed in winter uniform and lying next to a road. They are seen on the back and according to the comment it is the Eastern front in 1944/1945 and most important, it is FATHER and SON. I've been thinking about this picture for years. Perhaps somebody knows where to find it or is willing to post it here. It is very well possible the comment is just for propaganda purpose, but I would like to see this picture again.

Precisely. Couldn't have said it better myself. The maps can't be big enough. Until then CM1 is still very much on my mind.

Sensational work, Saferight, thank you and all the best for 2014.

My impression is that the Red army of 1944/45 was of a higher quality than the Wehrmacht. The Germans had lost too many veterans after the collapse of Army Group Centre and the following defeats.

So the first Eastern front game will be about Bagration. I wonder what the second will cover. Oder Front? Eastern Prussia? Hungary? The Baltic? Too soon of course to speculate, but a man can dream.

Oddball, if it comes to the worst and you can't afford the new game, I will donate € 5,- to you, as I am sure will other people. No dedicated member of this community should be unable to play CM, because of a money problem. Sorry to read even Sweden is affected by the economical situation.

Saferight, you are a genius. Period.

P.s don't forget the FOG.

Thank you, Steve, much appreciated. I can honestly say there isn't a day I'm not thinking about CM going back to the Eastern front. I miss it so much. All great news, especially the bigger maps and the AAA. Short movie, but it made my day. As always I have full confidence in what you guys are doing.

All enjoyable nonsense. Time somebody starts to make serious war movies with that kind of facilities and technic to his disposal.

Great job, Saferight, please keep them coming.

You are really a man of your word, Aris. Thank you. Please upload.