Edwin P.

Re: Chance The results of diplomacy can not be guaranteed in real life, and I believe that the results of diplomatic actions should not be 100% predictable. Likewise, the discovery of technology. Some may complain about the chance factor, but I see it as quite realistic and I savor the moments when a new advancement level is achieved.

Re: Chance The results of diplomacy can not be guaranteed in real life, and I believe that the results of diplomatic actions should not be 100% predictable. Likewise, the discovery of technology. Some may complain about the chance factor, but I see it as quite realistic and I savor the moments when a new advancement level is achieved.

A while back there were several posts about adding diplomatic options to SC or SC2. Here are some thoughts on how to implement this concept using the existing structure of the program. G. Diplomacy A diplomatic button would be placed on the main screen leading to the diplomatic screen. This screen would use the same design used as the declare war screen. At the bottom of the diplomatic screen would be buttons for each diplomatic option. The player would first select a neutral country and then select one of the diplomatic options to be applied against that country by clicking on a diplomatic option button. Options that are not available would be greyed out. The effect of the diplomatic attempt would be calculated and displayed on screen at the end of the players turn (aka Technology Research Results). This gives your opponent 1 turn to counter your diplomatic efforts before they take effect. The diplomatic option would be activated in the rules/variations screen. Diplomatic Options G1. Send Military Aid – Cost 100 MPP 50% receiving nation’s starting OOB increases by 1 Corps. The chance for a corps increases by 25% if an adjacent nation has been attacked. The corps is placed in a random hex adjacent to the neutral’s capital city. Example: Norway receives 100MPP and there is a 50% that its OOB increases by 1 Corps. If Sweden has been attacked the chance that this aid will be used to equip a corps increases to 75%. There is a chance that this corps is placed in a position to stop the standard 1 turn conquest of Norway. Adjacent Nations Example: Norway: Sweden Sweden: Norway Iraq: Vichy France – Turkey G2. Support Pacifists – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nations War Readiness reduced by 5% Example: Germany gives 50MPP to support pacifists in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness is reduced by 5%. G3. Encourage War – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nation’s War Readiness increased by 5%. Example: UK gives 50MPP to influence war support in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness increases by 5%. G4. Transit Rights – Cost 100MPP 20% receiving nation grants passage to naval ships and transports through its waters/ports/straits (Turkey / Denmark). Example: Germany gives 100MPP to Turkey. There is a 20% that axis ships can now transit the Turkish straits leading to the Black Sea while Turkey remains neutral. (Note: Each Axis ship/transport in the Black Sea should increase Russian war readiness by a %, as each Allied ship/transport in the Adriatic Sea should increase Italian war readiness) G5. Deny Transit – Cost 100 MPP 75% receiving nation will deny passage to opposing forces through its straits/ports (Turkey / Denmark) and will deny admittance to any ships in need of repairs. Any ship in a port or strait hex is displaced to the nearest open sea hex. Example: Axis diplomatic efforts secure transit rights for their ships through the Turkish Straits. Allies can respond with diplomatic efforts that have a 75% to prevent this before Axis ships can transit the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea. Of course, these efforts will cost the allies 100MPP. G6. Ship Repair – Cost 50MPP 50% receiving neutral nation will allow your ships to dock at their port for repairs. A ship docked in a port of a neutral nation can not be attacked without declaring war on that neutral nation. G7. Support Coup - Cost 100 MPP 20% That the government of a minor neutral nation is overthrown and replaced with a friendly government. A true neutral will join your side as an ally, a pro-Axis minor country will join the axis during any Axis inspired coup. If formerly a pro-axis minor nation this nation will become a true neutral nation. If formerly a pro-axis leaning nation (Turkey, Spain) this country will become a true neutral nation. Example: Government of Bulgaria is replaced with a pro-allied government and will not enter the war as an ally of the Germans. Example: Allies support a coup in Greece. Greece joins the Allies the following turn, unless the Axis successfuly suppress the coup during their turn. Example: Allies launch a coup in Spain turning it to a True Neutral Nation. Another successful coup will cause Spain to join the Allies. G8. Support Government - Cost 100MPP 50% that the attempted coup is supressed and the prior government is restored if enemy troops do not occupy the capital city. Example: Axis supported coup is declared in Norway, Allies support counter coup. As long as no Axis troops occupy Oslo, the coup is suppressed and Norway remains neutral. G9. Partisan Support - Cost 50MPP 50% selected neutral nation will allow supplies to flow to partisan forces in an adjacent conquered nation. This increases chance for partisans by 10%. Example: Greece is convinced to support partisans in Yugoslavia. Chance for Yugoslavian partisans increase from 15% to 25% (75% to 85% during winter) until German diplomats convice Greek government to Deny Aid or Axis conquers Greece. G10. Deny Support - Cost 50MPP 50% The neutral nation will deny aid to partisan movements in an adjacent country. Stops effect of G9. Partisan Support. [ July 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

A while back there were several posts about adding diplomatic options to SC or SC2. Here are some thoughts on how to implement this concept using the existing structure of the program. G. Diplomacy A diplomatic button would be placed on the main screen leading to the diplomatic screen. This screen would use the same design used as the declare war screen. At the bottom of the diplomatic screen would be buttons for each diplomatic option. The player would first select a neutral country and then select one of the diplomatic options to be applied against that country by clicking on a diplomatic option button. Options that are not available would be greyed out. The effect of the diplomatic attempt would be calculated and displayed on screen at the end of the players turn (aka Technology Research Results). This gives your opponent 1 turn to counter your diplomatic efforts before they take effect. The diplomatic option would be activated in the rules/variations screen. Diplomatic Options G1. Send Military Aid – Cost 100 MPP 50% receiving nation’s starting OOB increases by 1 Corps. The chance for a corps increases by 25% if an adjacent nation has been attacked. The corps is placed in a random hex adjacent to the neutral’s capital city. Example: Norway receives 100MPP and there is a 50% that its OOB increases by 1 Corps. If Sweden has been attacked the chance that this aid will be used to equip a corps increases to 75%. There is a chance that this corps is placed in a position to stop the standard 1 turn conquest of Norway. Adjacent Nations Example: Norway: Sweden Sweden: Norway Iraq: Vichy France – Turkey G2. Support Pacifists – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nations War Readiness reduced by 5% Example: Germany gives 50MPP to support pacifists in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness is reduced by 5%. G3. Encourage War – Cost 50 MPP 50% receiving nation’s War Readiness increased by 5%. Example: UK gives 50MPP to influence war support in the US. There is a 50% that US war readiness increases by 5%. G4. Transit Rights – Cost 100MPP 20% receiving nation grants passage to naval ships and transports through its waters/ports/straits (Turkey / Denmark). Example: Germany gives 100MPP to Turkey. There is a 20% that axis ships can now transit the Turkish straits leading to the Black Sea while Turkey remains neutral. (Note: Each Axis ship/transport in the Black Sea should increase Russian war readiness by a %, as each Allied ship/transport in the Adriatic Sea should increase Italian war readiness) G5. Deny Transit – Cost 100 MPP 75% receiving nation will deny passage to opposing forces through its straits/ports (Turkey / Denmark) and will deny admittance to any ships in need of repairs. Any ship in a port or strait hex is displaced to the nearest open sea hex. Example: Axis diplomatic efforts secure transit rights for their ships through the Turkish Straits. Allies can respond with diplomatic efforts that have a 75% to prevent this before Axis ships can transit the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea. Of course, these efforts will cost the allies 100MPP. G6. Ship Repair – Cost 50MPP 50% receiving neutral nation will allow your ships to dock at their port for repairs. A ship docked in a port of a neutral nation can not be attacked without declaring war on that neutral nation. G7. Support Coup - Cost 100 MPP 20% That the government of a minor neutral nation is overthrown and replaced with a friendly government. A true neutral will join your side as an ally, a pro-Axis minor country will join the axis during any Axis inspired coup. If formerly a pro-axis minor nation this nation will become a true neutral nation. If formerly a pro-axis leaning nation (Turkey, Spain) this country will become a true neutral nation. Example: Government of Bulgaria is replaced with a pro-allied government and will not enter the war as an ally of the Germans. Example: Allies support a coup in Greece. Greece joins the Allies the following turn, unless the Axis successfuly suppress the coup during their turn. Example: Allies launch a coup in Spain turning it to a True Neutral Nation. Another successful coup will cause Spain to join the Allies. G8. Support Government - Cost 100MPP 50% that the attempted coup is supressed and the prior government is restored if enemy troops do not occupy the capital city. Example: Axis supported coup is declared in Norway, Allies support counter coup. As long as no Axis troops occupy Oslo, the coup is suppressed and Norway remains neutral. G9. Partisan Support - Cost 50MPP 50% selected neutral nation will allow supplies to flow to partisan forces in an adjacent conquered nation. This increases chance for partisans by 10%. Example: Greece is convinced to support partisans in Yugoslavia. Chance for Yugoslavian partisans increase from 15% to 25% (75% to 85% during winter) until German diplomats convice Greek government to Deny Aid or Axis conquers Greece. G10. Deny Support - Cost 50MPP 50% The neutral nation will deny aid to partisan movements in an adjacent country. Stops effect of G9. Partisan Support. [ July 08, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

JerseyJohn Thanks for the article, most interesting and quite revealing.

6th Airborne Thanks for the Confirmation Hubert Thanks for tweaking the AI [ July 06, 2003, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Although HOI AI has been criticized for its poor AI - here's a interesting bit of news from their official Forum: If SC2 included the ability for users to mod the AI files it would help build a stronger user base for the product and its future spinoffs (American Civil War ) while also allowing the designer to cull the best AI routines from the game's players. [ July 05, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Updated Thoughts on Doctrines (for SC2) - Player has option to select one doctrine in each area. Selecting or changing a doctrine costs 150MPP. New Doctrine takes effect in 4 turns. Default Doctrine is None. Land - None - Guerilla Warfare: +5% Russian Partisans (Russia Only) - Trench Warfare: +1 Maximum Entrenchment Level - Mobile Warfare: Armors Costs 10% Less, Infantry 10% More - Infantry: Infantry costs 10% Less, Armor 10% More Air - None - Air Superiority: Air Fleets cost 10% less, Bombers 10% More - Strategic Bombing: Bombers cost 10% less, Air Fleets 10% More - Recon: +1 Spotting Range - Air Defense: +20% Readiness when Intercepting Navy - None - Sub Warfare: Subs cost 10% less, Other naval units cost 10% more - Naval Battle: Battleships & Cruisers cost 10% less, Subs & Carriers 10% more - Naval Air: Carriers cost 10% Less, Other naval 10% more - Transports: Transports cost 25% Less, Other Naval units 10% More. [ July 05, 2003, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Why aren't there more Grand Strategy Games - Other game types sell better and grand strategy games rarely make the list of best selling games.

I like your idea of managing your general staff, promoting and retiring/executing generals who fail to perform. Such actions must be carefully balanced against the temporary chaos that such actions cause and the potential for a military coup if a leader replaces his too many of generals too often. If such a feature as added to SC2, I would have the combat rating of the affected HQ unit drop to zero for a transition phase (say 2 to 3 turns). [ July 04, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Bidding - when playing against other players each side can bid to play the Axis. The person who bids the highest plays the axis. The opposing side gets a MPP bonus which is added to the starting MPP of one of the neutral allied powers using the campaign editor.

In prior versions if you pulled back the french units from NW of the Maginor Line the Germans would keep bashing against the Maginot line and not DOW the Low Countries until the Maginot line was breached. With the new version they seem to have abandoned this strategy and are now, properly, attacking the low countries and not bashing themselves needlessly against the maginot line. Has anyone else seen this in games vs the AI? (also in one game vs the AI the AI operated 2 air fleets to Ireland after the UK DOW Ireland, I have never seen this before.) [ July 04, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

After ITALY enters the war the French AI should execute the following steps if it wants to delay the Axis conquest of Egypt; 1) Moved the French unit in Algiers to Gibraltar (after the UK corps vacated it for the Atlantic) and then Egypt after it turns Free French via the Cape of Good Hope (while moving the UK corps back into Gibraltar) and 2) Move the French unit in Beruit to the hex west of Cairo. Force Summary: Current AI: 1 UK Corps in Egypt Proposed AI Action: 1 UK corps + 2 Free French Corps in Egypt. [ July 06, 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Reply

Madison, Thanks for the link, I downloaded the rules and it looks most interesting.

Here's a tech that directed towards affecting the opponent's ability to make war. During WWII both sides targeted the opposing side's military leaders, although most of these attempts ended in failure. The US Navy did succeed in shooting down the plane carrying Yamamoto. To simulate this; Tech: Leadership Target At each new level in Leadership Target there is a 10% chance that the highest level HQ unit of a randomly choosen opposing nation (USA/UK/RUSSIA/GERMANY) will be replaced with another unit choosen randomly from that nation's force pool. Example: 10% that German Rommel HQ is replaced by a randomly choosen HQ unit. This test occurs at each increase in the Leadership Target tech level. This event would be announced with a randomly generated news bulletin: 1. General (xxxxxx) was killed when his plane was shot down by enemy fighters. (FOR ALL) 2. General (xxxxxx) was arrested and charged with treason. (FOR AXIS and RUSSIANS) 3. General (xxxxxx) was removed from command due to scandalous situations revealed in the press. (FOR USA ONLY - HQ Unit returned to Force Pool) 4. General (XXXXX) was killed when his plane crashed into the sea due to unkown causes. (FOR ALL) [ June 30, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Leadership and military skill is an advantage that is only discovered during warfare, perhaps; Tech: Leadership At each increase in Leadership level the combat rating of one randomly selected HQ unit increases by 1. Example: The rating of a randomly selected Italian HQ would increase from 4 to 5, or if already at 5 from 5 to 6.

Too often people overlook that fact that good intelligence vastly increased the ability of the UK Airforce to defend London. Intel Advance warning of incoming bomber fleets allows the defenders to mobilize their air fleets for defense. Each level of advancement in Intel gives a 10% that intercepting air fleets will receive a 40% readiness bonus. Thus at Level 5 Intel, the intercepting airfleet has a 50% to receive a 40% readiness bonus. [ June 29, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Three new tech Ideas: 1. Political Influence Tech (a simple way to reflect diplomacy) Reduces war readiness of opposing neutral nations by 5% per tech level and increases war readiness of friendly neutral nations by 5%. Thus UK Level 1 = +5% Russia/US and -5% Italy Thus German Level 1 = +5% Italy and -5% Russia/US. 2. Minining Technology Each level of Mining Technology increases the maxiumum production of controlled resource hexes by 2 MPP. 3. Armor Production (and Naval Production and Air Production) This reflects achievements in mass producing one specific type of a weapons system. Each level of armor production reduces the cost of producing armor units by 5%. Thus players could conceivably reduce the cost of producing Armor units by 50% (+25% Industrial Lvl 5 & +25% Armor Production Lvl 5) [ June 29, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

SeaMonkey I agree. A strong AI scriptwriter/editor would make for a much more powerful and popular package. Other software such as HOI and that WinWarII 4.0 have incorporated such a feature. HOI has a strong user community that is constantly turning out new AI mods. RE: I would like to see 5 types of AI Scripts incorporated into the game; 1. Strategic At this level the user could set the plan of conquest for the AI or general responses to the Opponents moves. IF DATE < 12/41 and UK Fleets in Med > 8 and France = Conquered and Russian Readiness < 50% and German Air Fleets >6 CALL SeaLion Turn 1, Call Invade Denmark, Conquer Poland 2. Strategy Execution Routines ExecutionL: Take Iraq Call: Defend Suez, Ship Troops, Move Atlantic Navy 3. Canned Routines Routine: Defend Suez Call: Move2, Move30, Move23 4. Routines/Rules Move30: MOVE Gibraltor Battleship to Hex (xx,xx) Move23: MOVE Bomber Fleet to Hex(xx,xx) Rule1: Ireland Limit - 1 Invasion Land Unit 5. Research/Production Rules FRANCE FALL > 2 Air Fleets, 1 RES(Jets), Reinforce POLAND FALL > 1 Air Fleet, Reinforce, 1 RES(Jets) Research: Jets, Jets, Anti-Air, Long Range, Subs, Jet, Anti-Air

Night, I agree that the beauty of SC is its simplicity. I also agree with SeaMonkey, that adding a feature like would not add to the complexity of the game if you could only change doctrines at a cost in MPPs (for switching production priorities) or only once a year, and use of doctrines included a None as the default (which would not give you any bonusus/penalties.) To keep it simple, I would model it on research tech. A button would lead to a screen called Military Doctrines with three columns of five or six choices each. The default would be None. You would have the option to select one doctrine in each area at at a cost of 100MPP. Doctrine choices take effect at the start of the third following turn (Select doctrine on turn 1, takes effect on turn 4). Navy Doctrines 1> None 2> Decisive Battles (Battleships/Cruisers cost 10% less, Carriers 10% more) 3> Force Projection (Carriers cost 10% less, Battleships/Cruisers 10% more) 4> Open Seas (Transports cost 10% less, Subs 10% more) 5> Sub Warfare (Subs cost 10% less, transports 10% more) Air Force Doctrines 1> None 2> Air Defense 3> Air Superiority (+5% Readiness Fighters) 4> Strategic Bombing (Bombers 10% less/ Fighters 10% More) 5> Ship Targeting (+1 Naval Attack Bonus (ie Japanese trained to sink ships) Army Doctrines 1> None 2> Mobile Warfare 3> City Defense (+1 SD/+1AD when in cities) The effect of doctrines is to vary the cost/readiness of units for countries that care to select a doctrine. Thus subs might be 10% cheaper for Germany and Battleships/Cruisers 10% more expensive. Bill Macon, I agree that keeping the variables simple for a Smart AI to handle is very important. At the same time I think that some doctrines would obviously not apply to certain countries and that the AI could select its doctine based on its strategy. IE: Italy would probably favor a decisive battles doctrine for its navy and would never select force projection as it would rarely build carriers. The question is: Would such a feature substantially improve the game or not? [ June 25, 2003, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

In HOI the cost of units are partially determined by the policies of the nation's govermental ministers. Adding a similar feature to SC might add more variety to the game. Example (from HOI): Chief of Navy 1.Open Seas Doctrine (Transports cheaper,destroyers cheaper, submarines more expensive) 2. Decisive Battle Doctrine (Cheaper battleships and cruisers, more expensive carriers) 3. Power Projection Doctrine (Cheaper carriers, more expensive battleship/cruisers) 4. Indirect Approach Doctrine (Cheaper submarines, more expensive destroyers and transports) 5. Base Control Doctrine (Cheaper marines, naval bombers and transports. More expensive destroyers and cruisers and tactical bombers) In SC I could see giving players the option to select Ministers/Doctrines for the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Once chosen you can only change a minister for a cost of say 100MP. This would reflect the cost in changing production priorities. Thus Germany with a Indirect Approach Doctine could build subs at a cheaper cost, while the US following an Open Seas doctrine would find it cheaper to transport their troops. Just another variable to think about. [ June 24, 2003, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Thanks for the Link Bill, I just downloaded it and SC looks/plays much better but this game has two interesting features; 1> AI Script Writer so that players can write their own AI scripts 2> Weather Effects Appear on Map, ie in some areas you see it raining.

I stongly agree, SC is a highly playable game and I like the idea for a Civil War Game based on the same game engine (infantry, artillery, cavalry, ironclads, etc). Perhaps a game covering the Age of Rome, if it accounted for the differences in units & tactics employed by Roman Legions, Egyptian Chariots, Greek Phalanxes, etc. It reminds me of an old SPI game called the Punic Wars. A boardgame similar to SC it was most interesting, simple and covered the area from Spain to Syria. For me SC is well balanced. The major changes I would like to see are enhancements to the AI, improved FOW, additional tech / investment choices and as KDG said more randomness. Basically, changes that would not detract from the playability of the game. [ June 24, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

Re; Recent Patch Giving Spain to the Axis I find this to be reasonable. If Franco saw a large invasion force landing in Portugal he might have panicked and sought help from Germany, fearing that Spain would be next, or he might have massed his armed forces on the boarder of Portugal to deter any invasion of Spain. Of course, such actions on his part might have sparked another civil war in Spain. What the game should do, in my opinion, is balance the effect of an allied invasion with their previous actions (ie did they invade Ireland, Iraq, Greece, Low Countries). If Portugal is the first invasion of the Allies then Spain should have a chance to remain neutral, if there are no allied transports off the Spanish coast. If Spain remains neutral in the face of an Allied invasion of Portugal then it should also redeploy two armies to protect Madrid and guard the border with Portugal. Spain should also have a 30% to mobilize another corps to assist in the defense of Madrid. Thus you have 3 possible outcomes; 1. Invade Portugal > Spain Allies with Germany 2. Invade Portugal > Spain Neutral but redeploys forces 3. Invade Portugal > Spain Neutral but redeploys forces and mobilizes another corps. [ June 24, 2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]