Hortlund

Thank you CDV. First battle: An operation actually... "Descent into Maleme". *drooool*

CMAK just arrived. IN YOUR FACE SUCKERS!!!

I have no idea. But that is in essence the meaning of the phrase "recon by fire". What you seem to be advocating is more along the lines of "rubble everything in sight".

Yes yes AFTER the battle. And that would be after the Allied forces had called in whatever artillery and airpower they could muster that day. And after the Germans had done the same thing. But that is hardly something in question here is it? I mean no one is arguing that if you have identified an enemy position, you use whatever means at your disposal to take it out.

Yes but recon by fire is hardly the same thing as levelling the place now is it? Recon by fire would be to put some machine gun fire on the windows or something, not using 20 rounds of HE to blast the farmers barn into a pile of wood and cow-remains.

I think what needs to be changed first and foremost in the new engine is the house-destruction routine. The way it is now, you pump enough shots into a building it will explode and rubble. I would like to see parts of the building collaps, I would like to see the building catch fire. But most of all, I would like to see a very different damage routine for buildings. I mean what exactly is supposed to be taking place when the building is rubbled? Have the guns shot off two walls and the rest collapses? How? Sometimes the building will catch fire, but frankly that is something that should happen alot more often. I dont know if it is a councious desicion by BFC to rubble buildings instead of setting them on fire (so to not tax the low spec computers too much) but one would imagine that a building being subjected to HE bombardment would catch fire before it collapsed. Another thing for the new engine is for rubble to spill out to adjacent tiles. Right now if you rubble a house, it merely implodes into a nice pile of rubble. In real life it would scatter all over the streets, making them impassable for tanks...yet another reason not to rubble buildings at random if you were about to attack a town...

MikeyD Yes, but now you are talking about situations where you have ID'd enemy infantry in those buildings. I dont think anyone is arguing that you wouldnt rubble those buildings if you could. What we were talking about was situations like if you arrive at a village you know to be enemy occupied. Suppose it consists of maybe 40-50 houses and other buildings. How many real life commanders would order the troops to start shooting up buildings up at random? Not many is my bet. [ December 01, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ]

Well, in real life you would have two additional considerations. 1) Someone is probably living in that building. For all you know, that very room you are aiming at could at that very second contain a cowering family. Some might not care about that, but generally, most soldiers did not deliberately go out of their way to kill or make the lives of the civilians extra-miserable. 2) You could easily pump 50 HE 75mm grenades into a building without having it explode and rubble like it does in CM. At what point do you stop shooting at building X and start shooting at building Y? Meanwhile, you might not be quite sure when the next ammo load will come, and you dont really want to face infantry without that HE ammo. Frankly I find the building-explosion-rubbling in CM to be a tad off, but thats another story.

Hm, didnt know that actually. [übernerd mode on] Actually I think the USMC Dress Blue is the most beautiful uniform there is. [/übernerd mode off] But thats another story. Hrm...carry on. PBEM is in the mail, we will commence asswhopping shortly.

Nidan1 my old foe. Have I told you lately how much I despise you for your pathetic handling of the OH-SO-NOT-überwaffenSS-pixeltruppens in the Kharkov operation? No? Well let me remedy that for you then. Nidan1 I despise you for your handling of the OH-SO-NOT-überwaffenSS-pixeltruppens in the Kharkov operation. Ah, that felt good. I will send you a setup right away. And let me tell you what it will be. We shall play a scenario from...gasp...the DEMO. Yes, we shall play the ancient African battle known as Frauhlingswohnung...Fruchlichsvin...Fursz ... YOU KNOW WHICH ONE I MEAN DAMMIT. I dont care if you have played it a thousand times, I dont care if you are so sick and tired of it that you vomit at my feet at the mere thought of playing it again, I dont care if you know every secret pixel of the entire map, I dont care if you have memorized the entire OOB...I ...DONT...CARE. Because I Want to kick your ass with a dusty old sandy BOOT. Yes...you will get to play with the über-cool-multi-cannon-land-battleships, and I will get the armored cars. And yes, you will get to defend huge stone buildings and hide behind stone walls, while I will have to run across an open desert to get at you... That only seems FAIR to me. If you want I can hold off my attack until turn 35 too, and then just do one mad rush across the fields towards the flags too...NOT THAT IT WOULD HELP YOU, because I would still whop your sorry be-hind from the shores of Tripoli TO the halls of Montezuma...wherever the hell that is. Yes, consider yourself challenged boy. I'm going to do my über setup now, and shortly I will return with a PBEM file.

Yes, its bad when the high-member-number-early warning system doesnt work anymore to help us recognize the SSN's. I know that you will all go "ooh" and "aaah" over this next idea of mine. So let me start out by saying "thank you, most kind of you" before I post it. Thank you, most kind of you. There...NOW would it be possible that someone...maybe the Justicar could be so kind as to post a list of all the Royals, Olde ones and Knights maybe? This could serve as a lighting beacon for the mere mortals to awe at, and it would serve us greatly in our posting in this M.B.T.

Hey Dan If you look at the first two pictures you linked, you will not exactly how thick that engine air-intake cover (someone with a grog-level greater than mine will undoubtedly tell me what the proper word for it is ) really is. Again, you could probably shoot a .50 cal into one of those holes, but again, you would have to be in a vertical dive to do it. And if you try it at a 45 degree angle or smaller (which is probably the most likely attack angle) it should be pretty clear that the .50 cals would not penetrate the engine covers, but pieces of .50 cal bullets might fall down there yes.

Uh...what I said was that I have not seen any documented cases of .50 cal doing damage to German panzer tracks. If you are looking for some info on the effect of airpower on tanks in general, look for: I. Gooderson, Allied Fighter-Bombers Versus German Armour in North-West Europe 1944-1945: Myths and Realities (Journal of Strategic Studies, vol 14, No 2 June 1991) Basically, the Brits had a team "the operation research team", that went over the battlefields after the battle to examine German wrecks to determine what had killed those wrecks. Gooderson has gone through these reports and published his findings. Probably the most reliable sources for such information around today. Example: Quote by Zetterling

Actually no I dont. Or maybe that sounded too harsh. Let me put it this way, I have never seen any documented case of an aircraft shooting off the tracks of any German tank with its .50 cals, nor have I seen any documented case of any .50 cal having that effect on the tracks of any German tank, Tiger or not. I think that it also is physically impossible. Same goes for getting some shots into the engine for that matter. And that includes Pz IIIs and Pz IVs, not only Tigers. The closest I have seen was some theoretical argument that at 100 meters, and at 90 degrees angle, the .50 cal bullet could theoretically penetrate the rear top armor of a Pz IVH, but since the gun platform (the aircraft) would have to be at an altitude of 100 meters and in a vertical dive for it to happen, its not very likely to have ever happened in real life Luckily I've never seen that happen either (if I had, I would probably have written some "Fix or somefink"-post that very same second ) I think it should be an impossiblity, but before we start throwing penetration tables and armor thickness charts at eachother, is there any way to easily check if it is possible right now? Yeah I saw that one too, and frankly I dont know what to make of that guy. We've had huge discussions on this topic (ac .50 cal vs German armor) in another forum, and the most plausible theory someone put forward was that the German tank he was firing at was leaking oil or something, and when he shot at it, that oil caught fire and made it look like a kill. Or something...I dunno, that guy could remember it all wrong too, maybe the dust from the 50 cals hitting the road made him think he got a kill, maybe the crew bailed for some reason and he thought he got a kill. But no matter what the true story was, there is one thing that is certain, there is no way you can bounce a .50 cal round off the ground and have it penetrate the bottom of any German ww2 tank. Yeah I hope that was the reason. Personally I would be very concerned if the game engine would allow .50 cals to immobilize German Tigers by shooting off their tracks. [ November 29, 2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ]

I wanted to break this out from the original thread, beacuse it raises a very important question. No, Im sorry but you are misstaken here. .50 cals on aircraft in ww2 could not immobilize Tiger tanks by shooting off the tracks. Nor could the .50 cals penetrate the "thin engine covers" on the Tiger. If such effects are in the game, then that is something that needs to be looked at. [ November 29, 2003, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ]

Well, I called them in Germany yesterday to see if they ship CMAK to Sweden. To my great surprise, not only do they ship it to Sweden, they accept COD too. So for a measly 38 Euros, they will send the game to my post office where I can check it out. Im impressed.

Birdy-nam-nam. That would work.

Speaking of proctologists... Has anyone seen Nidan1 lately? [not bolded for I do not know his current status] Edit...now THAT was spooky. Anyway..do we owe eachoter turns or somefink? [ November 26, 2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ]

Er.. Mspkr when I try to open that save, I get the good ol "opponent has a different version of CMBB"-message. Have I been gone that long? Is there a new version out?? (Im on 1.03)

So anyway. It is probably time for me to return to the CessPool. I would first like to tell you all how much I have missed you all. But we all know what a horrible lie that would be. Maybe a white lie of sorts...but still a lie... on par with the good 'ol "dont worry honey, I promise I'll pull out in time". I'm gonna search the catacombs of my mail to see if there are any old turns there waiting to go out. I remember giving MrSpkr a sound thrashing, I dont remember the details though. And of cource Lars was perfecting the art of losing Tiger I's to an opponent fielding nothing but T-34s, 45mm guns and conscript russians. hehehe poor Lars in our first battle I thrashed him using Italian cavalry (! I thought it was hardcoded into the game that Italians always must lose) and now he is wrecking his über-panzers. In case any other Knights are of the opinion that I owe them a turn or something, I'm sure you will let me know. Anyway, I cant say that I'm looking forward to going to the desert. In fact, I dont think anyone would want to go to the desert... only sand and snakes there. But hey, its a dirty job, but someones gotta do it. SOOO CMAK preordered and all. With my luck it wont arrive until 2004 though. Oh...one more thing *kneel* Hail to the Queen!

Sod off

I just cant get into it...

oo ooo and dont forget the Ninjas!! QUAH!! That'd be totally sweet because they would just flip out and kill people.

Hm, yes... good idea. Can you send the last one again?

Nah, that is only on my spare time, no pay or anything like that. I worked *alot* on Vicky over the summer. I guess I'm the guy responsible for the 1914 scenario. Started out as a betatester, but now I'm a scenario developer. The hated job was working in a court, the job I love is doing family law in a pretty big lawfirm. [ October 26, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Leutnant Hortlund ]