Vanir Ausf B

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

The Panthers in CMBN are only marginally worse at spotting than Pz IVs and Shermans. I don't know if they are the same in CMRT, but I assume they are. I haven't actually done any spotting testing in CMRT and my comments regarding the JPz IV are based only on the anecdotal experiences of myself and several other testers while play-testing a particular scenario (not Myth of Invincibility), so take it with a grain of salt for now. Prior to that my assumption had been that there was something particular to the Jagdpanther that was causing it's poor spotting, but I now suspect otherwise and the cupola, or lack thereof, is my favorite hypothesis at the moment. At some point I will probably have to break down and do some formal testing of similar vehicles with (Stugs) and without (ISU-122) a cupola to see if a pattern emerges.

I'm pretty sure it works with any vehicle, but it can only be done on the first turn while inside a setup zone. Once you hit the red button for the first time it won't work any more.

JPz IVs have Jagdpanther-like spotting ability in the game, i.e. horrible I blame the lack of a cupola.

On a Windows machine: My Documents --> Battlefront --> Combat Mission --> Red Thunder --> Game Files --> Quick Battle Maps

Yes, it can be reentered, but only by the original crew.

I am hopeful that if BFC does a module that includes near-miss vehicles such as the Panther F and IS-3 that they will toss in the Jagdtiger.

Damn you, Sequoia. You just had to say something.

Thanks for testing the 76mm, kip. Note that according to the manual, only the ausf Gs have flawed armor in the game. I have done small scale testing vs late ausf As and have yet to see 85mm APBC do more than scratch the paint on the glacis plate.

In reality, no. But keep in mind that, unless it has been changed, CMx2 does not model cumulative armor damage. The decals are just eye candy in that regard.

That Panther is an ausf G, which as we know has at least a chance of flawed upper hull armor in the game. We just don't know how flawed. At some point this week I will run some tests that will hopefully give us a general idea. The T-34/76 vs PzIV H example is hard to judge because there is a lot of conflicting data about the performance of the Soviet F-34 cannon. WW2 Ballistics gives 3 different possible muzzle velocities for that weapon, and 2 varieties of APBC ammunition (BR-350B and BR-350B "Special"). I have also seen reference to a BR-354B that was reportedly introduced in 1944. We can only make educated guesses at what data CMRT uses. In CMBB the muzzle velocity was 680 m/s, the highest of the 3 possibilities. At that velocity WW2 Ballistics lists BR-350B penetration against RHA (Pz IV J armor) at 600 meters as 73mm. CMBO modeled Pz IV J and H armor at 95% quality, which would resist equal to 76mm* (I don't have the CMBB or CMAK armor quality figures, unfortunately). That would give a penetration probability of 16-28%, depending on whether you go by US or Soviet data. So if *all* hits on the upper hull are fully penetrating that may be a cause for concern. * The CMx1 games all modeled the Pz IV upper hull at its official thickness of 80mm so my assumption is that CMx2 does also. A thickness of 83mm would be more accurate as that was closer to actual production thickness. CMAK was the first CM game to acknowledge the extra thickness of the Panther glacis plate beyond it's official number, modeling it at 83mm. WW2 Ballistics lists the measured Panther and Pz IV upper hull armor plates at 85mm.

Check the month. I don't recall when KTs become available, but I don't think it's in June. Try September, then set the "Heavy Tank Company" option at the bottom of the screen to King Tiger. Bingo. 3 companies of KTs

Look at the date. Kursk. The Soviets were still using mostly uncapped AP rather than the more effective APBC. And their metallurgy was less advanced in '43. However, it is interesting that the Panther glacis thickness is listed at 85mm. It makes me wonder what thickness Red Thunder has it at under the hood.

Needs acne medication.

Hell, yeah I want it!

Lol! _______________

You are setting a poor example for your son...

According to the manual the Panther D and A are modeled with 65mm thick lower hull armor, face hardened. I assume 55°. Late war 85mm APBC should penetrate that reliably out to about 500-600 meters, and then occasionally out to 1000. The ausf G is modeled with 50mm RHA, again at 55°. The Soviet 85 should penetrate that out past 2 kilometers. This is assuming 85mm APBC penetration at the muzzle of 143mm vs. RHA and 127mm vs. FHA. I will probably have to actually test the Panther G upper hull since we don't know for sure what the game assumes the armor quality to be there.

I'll look into it. The problem with Panther Gs is that they have a chance of lowered armor quality, at least on the glacis. But we don't know by how much. In CMBB it was 85%, IIRC. I also don't recall for sure if the armor quality modifier is applied to the thickness or the effective resistance. I think it's effective resistance.

I don't know if it's in the manual. It was a change made fairly late in development. I think once players discover it they will soon find themselves using it more often than the regular Target command

I didn't go through the calculations by hand, but a quick run through a ballistics calculator suggests this is about right for 122mm APBC. This assumes 205mm penetration at the muzzle which, admittedly, is probably debatable but it's not a crazy figure. Hmm, point blank penetration for this time period is about 87mm. Earlier war Soviet ammunition was lower quality. But regardless of that, some 76mm-equipped units, such as the T-34/76 M1942 Late, carry a small number of APCR rounds that penetrate 130mm at 100 meters and 92mm at 500 meters. See above comments. As with the upper hull, we need to know which Panther you are talking about. The lower hull on the ausf G is thinner than on the D and A, and also is RHA rather than FHA.

Even APCR should not be penetrating the Panther upper hull plate at 100% quality. EDIT: Looked at the stats, and it may be able to get though at very short ranges, such as under 300 meters.

It may have. It was particularly prone to spalling.

What version Panther did you test against and at what range? I have previously tested 85mm against high quality Panther armor (any ausf D or A) and have never seen a penetration of the upper front hull, even at 200 meters.

They are missing from QBs for the Soviet side. Germans have them. I'll add it to the list of missing QB units I am compiling.