LongLeftFlank
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Posts posted by LongLeftFlank
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That bothered me too, LLF. I haven't fired up CMSF in about 6 months, but I don't remember buildings falling that quickly in that game. Are modern 2nd/3rd world countries that much stonger than old stone & mortar European buildings?
No, quite the contrary. Middle Eastern buildings are generally either built of traditional mud bricks, which are the load bearing elements, or around a structural skeleton of cement/rebar pillars, slab cement floors and relatively thin walls/windows. Single story sheds or warehouses might also use cinderblock, but CMSF didn't provide those (cover values utterly suck).
Mud brick walls are thick but not very strong -- 7.62 MG ammo should achieve regular penetrations and .50 cal will punch clean through both walls. As to the modern stuff, either get behind a pillar or lie flat on the cement floor because not much else in there is going to stop even a .223 round.
Norman farmhouses and other buildings in contrast have walls built by piling up large stones pulled out of the surrounding fields, held together and faced/sealed with mortar. They are often a couple of feet thick, which gives pretty solid cover from bullets at ground level. Except for chateaux, the second storeys will generally have a lighter timber framed wall instead, which isn't as good for cover.
In towns, building walls are a mix of the same kind of dressed stone construction described above and red brick, which came into wider use in the late 19th century.
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The timbers would help hold the walls together in a brick house or building, but not so much in a stone farmhouse where the thick exterior walls are the major load-bearing elements. But as you say, you'd need to sever most of the timbers to trigger total collapse of even a modestly-sized building, which takes a pretty big explosion (155m+), a direct hit and a roof penetration.
That church, for example -- I can see piles of photos of gutted churches, but very few utterly destroyed ones unless bombs were involved. That thing's walls should be pretty much indestructible by most CM HE weapons (other than Long Toms, naval guns or Nebelwerfers), even if the roof and the occupants aren't.
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Tube Guy Never dies!
...permanently. He's like Kenny. You bastards!
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After watching Tyrspawn's panzergrenadiers plaster that village with artillery in the second AAR, causing one stone building after another to pancake neatly into an almost flat pile of rubble, I posted the below quoted observations, but they got lost in the larger discussion.
However, I was just browsing through legendary GI cartoonist Bill Mauldin's memoir "Up Front" and he gives a pretty interesting description of what war does to towns and buildings that resparked my interest in this topic.
This isn't a show-stopper for me of course -- a lot of large buildings will consist of multiple building objects that can be rubbled individually, but I throw it out for discussion -- I hope BFC will take a closer look at this in future modules or in the Bulge evolution.
"You can usually tell what kind of fighting went on in a town and how much was necessary to take it, by the wreckage that remains. If the buildings are fairly intact, with only broken windows, doors and pocked walls, it was a quick hand-to-hand street fight with small arms and grenades and perhaps a mortar or two.
If most of the walls are still standing, but the roofs have gaping holes and many rooms are shattered, then the entry was preceded by an artillery barrage. If some of the holes are in the slopes of the roofs facing the retreating enemy, then he gave the town a plastering after he left.
But if there isn't much town left at all, then planes have been around. Bombs sort of lift things up in the air and drop them in a heap. Even the enormous sheet-metal doors with which shopowners shutter their establishments buckle and balloon out into grotesque swollen shapes."
A collapsing European building (other than a wooden barn), with load-bearing walls of thick masonry or bricks, will very rarely pancake totally into a low heap of rubble when hit by HE as it does in the game. When one wall or a corner is blown away by direct fire, that will deprive the ceiling or roof section(s) immediately above it of support, causing partial collapse, but the sturdy roof beams would tend to keep most of the rest standing, leaving a "cutaway" structure. Units in the intact portion might be relatively untouched by the calamity.Now if an artillery shell plunges through a roof and explodes in the interior, a lethal overpressure + fragments situation exists for people inside, but a "gutted" structure will likely remain with its walls structurally intact and units on the ground floor might be largely untouched. If the shell detonates close to a wall, you might blow it out however, resulting in partial collapse as above.
Full demolition of a building in the manner shown in the game would generally require both a large calibre shell (or bomb) relative to building size, plus fuzing that caused it to punch through to the foundation before exploding. The resulting earthquake causes collapse of all the walls out and down, and "pancaking" of the floors and roofs, with near total destruction of all occupants. Even then however, you'd probably still see one or two corners of the building left standing at least up to the level of a "high wall", with appropriate LOS blocking and residual cover.
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Wonderful job, guys!
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The foxholes look just fine up close, and like rubber rafts from a distance, which is no big deal. I definitely wasn't a big fan of the "earth pimples" they used as a placeholder. Let the modders go to work and let's see what comes up.
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Possib ly a placeholder for a CGI effect to be aded later?
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Here's a short video of a Panther being pulled out of the garage near San Francisco - I had a laugh with all the complaints about the 'pimp-mobile suspension' we've been seeing in tyrspawn's VAARs. These guys surely aren't the best drivers in the world but seeing the Panther lurch around probably validates the CMBN modeling to some measure
Rocking while moving,
rocking while firing, -
edit: beaten like a ____________
My relatives in the Maritimes would say "beaten like a harp seal".
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Except that the troops (and officers) are still going to be pretty green -- the 137th, a Kansas National Guard regiment, had arrived in Normandy July 9th and gone into heavy action on the 11th. There were a few Italy vets among them but not many.
But you're right, some of the outfits did learn the grim business pretty quick. They issued a new mount for the BARs that helped them shoot over the top of the hedgerows. And they simply took the tripods off the water-cooled Browning HMGs and slid them on top of the embankments. And noncoms made pretty good use of radios to call in the company mortars (6 x 81mm)
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And here's a couple of poignant accounts from 137th vets of the same action described above. These also give you a feeling for the "dugouts" shown in the map I showed at the start of the thread. We're not talking scrapes here:
www.137thinfantry.org/schoonover/LETTERS.doc
Soon after the attack began, Col. Layng our regimental commanding officer received wounds to his face and legs by enemy machine gun fire--he never returned to the outfit, and was replaced by assisant division commander Brigadier General Edmund Sebree at 0830 and he was replaced by colonel Harold Emery that night. The Germans facing us were the 879th, 898th, and 899th infantry regiments of Kampfgruppe Kentner commanded by Col. General Kentner....
When we received replacements for the regiment, they were all young men who had had only 6 weeks of training and no furlough home before being sent overseas---some were crying and I personally felt sorry for them. I wrote home to brother Bill to join one of the services and not to be drafted and end up like the first replacements we had received!!!
First Sgt Bob R. Adams, 3rd Platoon - C Co - 137th Inf
Our packs were rolled by dawn. Once again we stacked our bed rolls and prepared to attack. This time our first battalion was in reserve, and we moved forward in the column keeping in close contact with the company ahead. Our own artillery was again pounding the German strong point that had stopped us the day before. The shells were exploding uncomfortably close, and the barrages were so mighty I marveled how any German soldier could be left alive.
A great pall of smoke and dust settled over what had once been a small French chateau. The German resistance had crumbled, and now we made a shall gain of a few hundred yards. Vacated German positions were in evidence and we could observe how deadly accurate our artillery barrages had been. A number of dead German soldiers were lying about, and equipment of every kind and description had been abandoned and left in disarray. The German foxholes had been cleverly dug. Using every advantage of the hedgerow they had tunneled and bored into them from all angles so that only a direct hit from artillery could dislodge them. They were deadly elaborate in every respect. Abandoned machine guns had strings attached to the trigger so they could be fired at intervals without exposing the gunner.
Dugouts were constructed by tunneling under the hedgerow, and the entrance was covered with layers of hugs poles and dirt. The dugouts were equipped with mattresses and cooking utensils. These had been pillaged from French homes. Many of the trees were equipped with a ladder leading to a "crows nest" that was neatly camouflaged in the top of the tree for observation and sniping.
Every conceivable angle had been taken into consideration. How many more of these honeycombed hedgerows lay ahead only the Germans knew. Attacking such ingenious positions seemed futile.
Once again the Germans began artillery and machine gun fire and the advance stopped. Once more we dug in when the order came to withdraw about 200 yards. The reason was to straighten our lines, and thus protect our exposed flanks. Our positions were protected by a hedgerow. Once again, every one started frantically digging in before the German artillery could be zeroed in on our new positions.
A few shells roared in, but they were slightly low, and we felt more secure as our foxholes went deeper and deeper into the hedgerow.
Attack orders were coming down in rapid succession from higher headquarters. Company C was now to be attached to the 3rd battalion, which at present was engaged in a terrific fight. This time as we moved out my squad was leading the company. Sgt Ira Austin and I were leading the column as we advanced along the hedgerow. These hedgerows offered much protection from enemy observation and fire, and no movement was across open space. We always followed the pattern of the hedgerow, and advanced along their bulwark of dirt and growth of trees and underbrush.
This was a lesson quickly learned in the fighting throughout the hedgerows of Normandy. The third battalion, to which we were now attached, was engaged in a furious battle a few hundred yards to our right front. The Germans were sending over round after round of heavy artillery and it was landing to our left rear with shuddering impact. Most of it was time-fused and exploded just above the ground. This had maximum effect on advancing troops since the shrapnel would strike about the same level as a soldier's body. The column now stopped as the battle to our front increased in fury, and the men scurried into the protection of the hedgerow, and began digging foxholes again.
I observed the Germans in their withdrawal had abandoned two excellent dugouts, almost perfect in construction and equipment. Occupying an abandoned German position was always dangerous because of "booby-traps." These two dugouts had been dug down deep into the ground, and then tunneled into the side of the hedgerow. On the floor were mattresses and bedding which had been pillaged from the French farmhouses, and cooking utensils taken from the same source. As the column halted, I cautiously entered and examined one of the two dugouts for any booby traps that might have been left behind. Finding none I called for the platoon sergeant to join me.
The sniper activity was increasing. It was not uncommon to hear the silken whisper of a German smizer bullet sing through the air. The company commander called on my squad to try to clear the menace, and with my automatic rifle team and three riflemen, we raked the tree tops with volley after volley in a vain effort to clear the area of any snipers the Germans may have left behind to slow our advance. Any tree or shrubbery that appeared suspicious was riddled with rifle fire.
Our company awaited orders to be committed. The wounded from the battle to our front were filing by in a continuous stream. Those who could not walk were being carried on litters by medics and assisted by those less seriously wounded. The reports coming back indicated a terrible slaughter was taking place among our third battalion and particularly I Company. The sickening sight of the wounded hobbling by verified the reports. The call coming down was for more medics and more litter bearers. The battle raged on and word came that four German prisoners had been taken and were coming back. As they came past our foxholes with their hands clasped over their heads, it was the first sight of a live German soldier that we had been fighting for two days.
As night drew near the fighting slackened, and the report was that very little advance had been made. The German artillery again went into full action. The heavies opened up and were landing uncomfortably close to us. Round after round was crashing a few hundred yards to our rear, and the foxholes went deeper and deeper. As night came on the artillery increased and was now exploding throughout our positions. The most terrifying danger from the artillery was in the overhanging trees and shrubbery along the hedgerows. A "tree burst" was when a shell struck a tree, causing a premature explosion, showering hot, deadly steel shrapnel down into the very pit of the foxholes. Tree bursts were common in the hedgerows.
Tonight I placed two men on sentry duty. All of my men were badly shaken and were showing the effects of battle from being under constant fire. Some had become almost rebellious. It was going to be a bad night with the Germans sending in barrage after barrage of artillery shells.
Each squad member would be on sentry an hour, and must remain out of his foxhole and walk up and down our sector and take a chance of leaping into a foxhole during an artillery shelling. Each foxhole had been dug very deep along the hedgerow, and as an extra caution, some men had tunneled back into the sides in order to avoid the shower of deadly steel shrapnel coming from tree bursts. The dugout which I occupied and which the Germans had so carefully constructed, was now so full of men that another could scarcely have squeezed in.
No rest was possible for anyone. All we could do was sit and wait for dawn, hoping and praying a shell would not crash into the dugout. Our platoon leader left the dugout to check the platoon shortly after midnight. A few shells had landed near our positions, and although we had escaped, the shrapnel had whizzed all around us. A few moments after the lieutenant had left, a shell screamed in and struck a tree directly over my squad's position. It had such a shuddering force I thought momentarily our dugout had been hit.
Now the screams of the wounded and dying filled the air. "Help!" "Medic!" "Help!" "Medic!" came the cries from the wounded. Although their cries had become common the past two days it immediately filled me with a sickening fear, and knotted my stomach. I knew my squad had been hit badly because the shell had crashed so close by. Even as the thought flashed through my mind, the door flew open and the lieutenant fell in. For a moment I thought he had been hit, but it was only shock, and he babbled incoherently. The wounded continued to cry out and plead for a medic, and I shall forever remember that brave medic who left the shelter of the dugout and went forth into God knew what, to administer aid, and comfort to the dying and wounded. Shells continued to crash all around us as he bound their wounds and loaded them on stretchers for the rear. Those not badly wounded helped carry the others who couldn't walk, and they made their way amid the burst of shells to the rear.
None of my squad had been killed, but five had been seriously hurt. One of the wounded was the soldier with whom I had shared a foxhole the two previous nights, and with whom I would have been with again had I not discovered the German dugout. The remainder of the platoon was badly shaken, and a few cases of shell shock developed. One soldier lay in the foxhole shaking and crying. He appeared as someone having a seizure.
We tried, but it was impossible to help him. Another man lay in the foxhole frozen with terror, unable to move. He was totally paralyzed with fear. It would have been a human act of kindness to send them back to the rear, but in war everyone who experiences the agony and horror become inhuman, so they were ordered to stay put.
During the night orders arrived to move into the line before dawn and be ready to launch an attack at 0800.
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Oh yeah, and I got your "combined arms" right here. It's my personal opinion that bogging/breakdown should be extremely frequent in CMBN, even in "dry" conditions for vehicles going off road (and in bad conditions, on them!)
Buckley, The Normandy Campaign 1944: Sixty Years On
On 11 and 12 July the 35th Division assaulted a most elaborate defensive position at Le Carillon. The 2/137 found the armoured support provided [3 tank platoons of the 737th Tank Battalion and 654th TD Battalion] entirely ineffective. The tank destroyers were wrecked by mines and mortars, and of four tanks sent in, one was blown up on a mine and two became bogged in the mud. These misadventures reflect the German policy of always separating enemy armour from infantry where they could do so.
The 2/137 was more successful in changing tactical organisation and procedures for the infantry and their own and attached fire support weapons. Colonel O'Connell decentralised his forces, attaching a platoon of heavy machineguns and a section of 81mm mortars to each company. The rifle companies were ordered to abandon conventional formation and create attack groups of four or five men. O'Connell remarked, "The best tactic was to first place very heavy concentrations of mortar fire on all suspected enemy lines and then to follow this up with a liberal use of grenade launchers and hand grenades."
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The answer to this dilema is.....
BATTALION,FIRE FOR EFFECT.
This looks very bad.And very awesome to play.
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Umm, sure..... Of course, that works both ways.
If you go down an echelon from the Green Book corps/divison level history ("On 13 July, the two attacking regiments of the 35th Division again scored only limited gains.") to the regiment and battalion level AARs, you start getting a feel for what the poor bastards at the pointy end were enduring. This report is essential reading -- check out the observations at the end.
Here's the regimental history for 137th Infantry on the fighting on July 13.
On 13 July 1944, the regiment attacked at 0800, with the 3rd & 2nd Battalions again leading. Visibility was poor, and aerial support was called off, but the artillery support remained excellent.
The 3rd Battalion moved 500 yards before being held up by machine gun fire. The 2nd Battalion on the right, received heavy shell fire and made no marked advance. These forces received heavy fire from enemy 88mm artillery regularly during the day, although at 1145 our own artillery knocked out two enemy mobile 88’s. Time burst was also used by the Germans.
It was evident that the hedgerows so common in Normandy were being used to the maximum in the plan of the German defense.
Forty-seven prisoners were taken during the day. Some of these surrendered as a result of our speaking to them across the enemy lines by means of a loudspeaker, encouraging them to give up the fight. Propaganda leaflets had also been dropped over the enemy lines during the night, which may have had some results. The prisoners were mostly of Polish, Czech and Austrian descent, and appeared glad to be out of the fighting.
After being held up in the early part of the day, the 2nd Battalion broke through for a gain of 500 yards. An enemy counterattack forced the 3rd Battalion back to its original position at 2200.
Our casualties on this day were the heaviest yet, with 21 killed, 87 wounded and 17 missing in action. The casualties were particularly costly in that Capt Orren L. Biesterfeld, 1st Lt. Ralph H. Johnson and 1st Lt. John T. Graham Jr. were killed.
And now here's the blow-by-blow at battalion level (3rd Battalion). This document is essential reading
http://www.137thinfantry.org/opsreport.pdf
The 219th Field Artillery was to fire a thirty minute preparation across the battalion front. H-5 minutes the concentration was planned to fall within 100 yards of the front line [!], at 0800 hours lift 100 yards at which time the battalion was to attack. Thereafter the fires were to lift 100 yards successively on call of the Battalion Commander.... The machine gun platoons remained with Companies I and K, mortar observers were replaced during the night and were to fire on the sunken road in front of I company and the one between I and K....
During the night the enemy maintained concentrations of mortars and artillery within the battalion area, which were amazingly accurate, resulting in a number of casualties throughout the night and a complete loss of rest for all....
At 0730 hours the artillery preparations began to cover the area as planned....
Company I requested the lifting of artillery fire about 0810, followed closely by K company. Company L on the right reported receiving fire from their right flank, but reached their 100 yard objective about 0830.
These same tactics were repeated three successive times for an advance of about 350 yards. Little resistance was encountered except on the right flank of L Company which consisted of some small arms fire and mortar fires.
About 1000 hours the same plan of fire maneuver was attempted again, but with no success. As the artillery lifted and the companies jumped off they were met with a blast of machine gun and small arms fire all along the line. Within a matter of minutes the enemy ranged in with mortar barrages on the positions of the front line companies, causing a large number of casualties.
No further gains were made during the day.
About 1400 hours the battalion began to receive intensive artillery and mortar fire along the front lines, and extending about 800 to 900 yards to the rear.
I Company reported a counterattack. The Battalion Commander directed I Company to hold, and artillery fire was requested and received on the area to the front of I company.
I company was successful in stopping the counterattack but not without severe losses in men and officers. The Company Commander and Executive Officer were killed, the Weapons Platoon Leader, the Artillery Forward Observer and the Machine Gun Leader of M Company were wounded.... coupled with the loss of a number of excellent NCOs and riflemen, left I Company badly disorganized.
The Battalion S-3 [the author] took over the task of reorganizing the company under the command of young 2d Lieutenant Ashley, the junior officer of the company, a few minutes prior, but now the senior and only officer remaining....
During the days operations all companies reported our artillery falling short causing casualties and considerable mistrust of the artillery among the men. This is explainable by the methods the enemy used in ranging in with counter-fire of mortars each time our artillery fired. In the battlefield noise and confusions, that faint whisper of mortars falling in could not be heard, therefore officers and men alike in their confusions blamed the artillery for short rounds....
During the night, rations, water and ammunition and medical supplies were brought forward and distributed by the personnel of the battalion train.... This was strictly a hand-carried operation, due to the lack of roads or trails available and also due to the heavy shelling the battalion was subjected to twenty-four hours a day. Further, the noise of a few vehicles would be easily located, and result in additional shelling....
Sniper action had increased during the day to such an extent that the Battalion Commander directed that no individual was to move about singly, but to travel in pairs and small groups.
Yeah, I'd say that's "limited gains" all right.
EDIT: And btw, that day Third Battalion weren't even attacking the main German position on the "Nose" (shown on the map) -- that delightful task fell to the Second Battalion.
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I dunno - maybe the hedgerow had a preexisting gap in it that the Krauts decided to block. Check out the 2010 forum thread I linked to above for some more discussion of this map.
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I'll tell you one thing, based on my research so far, this ain't going to be your standard CM game, with your forces sweeping from one end to the other of a 1 km deep map in 90 minutes.
To keep pace with the historical record, you'll be lucky to clear 400-600 meters of hedgerows and a few stone farmhouses along a ~500m frontage in the course of an entire day. That's probably about 3 separate CM-scale battles, each of which begins and ends under a rain of artillery fire, and one of which likely involves a German counterattack/counterinfiltration.
Like Ramadi, this won't be every CM player's idea of a "fun game", but I suspect there's more than a few out there who will be interested in sampling this nasty gritty side of the Normandy experience.
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In addition to the Green Book account, there's some great stuff on the net. It also looks like some Forum members already took a look at this in a previous thread....
http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=90589
137th Infantry Regiment took 469 casualties from 10-14 July, including the commander Col Layng.
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Not for the claustrophobic either....
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Your pixeltruppen might not though....
On 14 July, Company E of the 137th was able to get through three hedgerows against light opposition, but then struck fields bordered by sunken lanes and well defended. It continued attacking the rest of the day and advanced only one more field length.
Sounds just bloody awful. A preview of the Hürtgenwald -- struggling through dense hedgerows under the Argus eye of German mortar observers up on the heights.
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On 13 July, the two attacking regiments of the 35th Division again scored only limited gains. The principal reason, not realized until later advance had cleared the ground, was a German defensive system described by XIX Corps G-2 as representing a "school solution" for the enemy's problem of stopping our attack.
Just west of the hamlet of le Carillon (Map 16) the Germans had organized on a north-south nose of higher ground, between two small creeks, in a fashion not matched elsewhere on the division front. Using every advantage offered by the hedgerow terrain, they followed the principle of defense in depth. The main enemy positions began 500 yards from the northern end of the nose, on the line le Carillon-la Mare; from here, for 1000 yards to the south, the rising ground was organized as a defensive base. From it, small combat groups worked out to the north and on both flanks to prepared outpost positions; if pressed, they could retire easily to the base. The nose was only 50 to 100 feet higher than the low ground on the approaches from the north, and less than that above the draws to either side, but this was high enough to afford good observation, and enemy automatic weapons and mortars were sited to deliver effective harassing fires over a wider radius. Heavy hedgerow dikes and a few sunken roads gave the Germans opportunity for movement under cover from American artillery fire. Enemy forces in this area were estimated at about a battalion....
The problem of cracking this German strong-point was never really solved; success on other parts of the front settled the issue during the next few days.
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This ferocious fight for a commanding height between US 35th ID and German 352nd ID seems like a terrific setting for a mini-campaign. Figure about 6 company+ scale actions spread over 12-14 July. Playable by either side or player vs player.
If nobody else has tackled this one yet, I'll start work promptly once CMBN is released. I favour well-documented historical actions that put you "in the shoes" of the combatants, and this seems about as well documented as you get.
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(moved to its own thread)
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CoPlay would DEFINITELY get me into online play. I can't imagine playing a human in RT with no pauses while trying to manage anything more than a dozen units. I am just awful at "twitch" stuff.
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Agreed. Both a "T" and "L" angled roof would be very helpful. Also a flat roof for creating industrial buildings (no parapets).
But perhaps these additions are best bundled into a more MOUT-focused future module, along with various "Funnies", engineering weapons, flamethrowers, booby traps, etc.
(Arnhem, Cherbourg, Brest, Caen, Paris, Metz, Aachen, etc. etc.).
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Sounds like your primary concern is vehicles, but Mord did a useful CMSF mod that renders all infantry icons "generic" so that you can't instantly single out the HQs and support weapons. This helps some with FOW. Unfortunately, it does the same thing to your own unit icons.
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Play the demo and then decide. Don't buy it first and then be disappointed.
Whether you'll like it really depends on your particular reasons for disliking CMSF -- was it the setting and force imbalance, or was it the gameplay and extra micro involved? And CMSF also came a long long way between release and its current incarnation. I barely played in the first 2 years, but now it's pretty much all I play.
Is it really that easy to rubble a European building?
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
I'd also love to see a shelled building transform into a "gutted" but intact structure with vacant windows and scorch marks, even though its in game cover properties remain unchanged.
But I'd guess we'll get that around the time we get burning tank hulks with turrets knocked askew.... Strictly eye candy.