LongLeftFlank
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Posts posted by LongLeftFlank
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Put this gentleman on the payroll!
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Not a game breaker, but I would very much like to see a WWII skirmish line formation, with men advancing abreast but widely separated to minimize casualties from an enemy opening burst.
Right now, the closest I can manage is 3 teams advancing in parallel with the men in each clustered together or in a line, which puts them in defilade to the enemy and effectively means that this extremely common RL tactic isn't viable.
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I think many of you guys are grossly overestimating what it takes to move infantry formations (never mind vehicles!!!) through hedgerow country. That might be partly an issue with the maps as designed, or maybe not. But I am perfectly OK with bocage being effectively impassable under combat conditions.
The frustrations some of you are expressing (Why can't I have some guys scramble over the top of this stuff?) are perfectly reasonable. They are also the same frustrations expressed by the real men in the field.
Let's refresh on some historical testimony regarding the tactical properties of hedgerows, big and small:
First, the Gospel According To Green Book:
There were just three ways that our infantry could get through the hedgerow country. They could walk down the road, which always makes the leading men feel practically naked (and they are). They could attempt to get through gaps in the corners of the hedgerows and crawl up along the row leading forward or rush through in a group and spread out in the field beyond. This was not a popular method. In the first place often there were no gaps just when yon wanted one most, and in the second place the Germans knew about them before we did and were usually prepared with machine-gun and machine-pistol reception committees. The third method was to rush a skirmish line over a hedgerow and then across the field. This could have been a fair method if there had been no hedgerows.
Usually we could not get through the hedge without hacking a way through. This of course took time, and a German machine gun can fire a lot of rounds in a very short time. Sometimes the hedges themselves were not thick. But it still took time for the infantryman to climb up the bank and scramble over, during which time he was a luscious target, and when he got over the Germans knew exactly where he was. All in all it was very discouraging to the men who had to go first. The farther to the rear one got the easier it all seemed.
Of course the Germans did not defend every hedgerow, but no one knew without stepping out into the spotlight which ones he did defend.
It was difficult to gain fire superiority when it was most needed. In the first place machine guns were almost useless in the attack because about the only way they could be used was to fire from the hip. If you set them up before the advance started, they had no field of fire and could not shoot the enemy. If you carried them along until you met the enemy, still the only way to get them in position was to set them up on top of a hedgerow bank. That was not good because the German was in the next bank and got you before you set the gun down. Anyway, it had to be laid on the bank, no tripod, just a gun barrel lying unevenly on its stomach. On the other hand the Germans could dig their guns into the banks in advance, camouflage them, and be all set to cover the roads, trails, and other bottlenecks our men had to use.
A http://35thinfantrydivision-memory.com/site/index.php?option=com_content
&view=article&id=175%3Afirst-sergeant-bob-r-adams&catid=36%3Ales-veteran
s&Itemid=63〈=fr'>doggie's eye view, with some observations on bocage converted into a field fortification:
The German foxholes had been cleverly dug. Using every advantage of the hedgerow they had tunneled and bored into them from all angles so that only a direct hit from artillery could dislodge them. They were deadly elaborate in every respect. Abandoned machine guns had strings attached to the trigger so they could be fired at intervals without exposing the gunner.
Dugouts were constructed by tunneling under the hedgerow, and the entrance was covered with layers of hugs poles and dirt. The dugouts were equipped with mattresses and cooking utensils. These had been pillaged from French homes. Many of the trees were equipped with a ladder leading to a "crows nest" that was neatly camouflaged in the top of the tree for observation and sniping.
Every conceivable angle had been taken into consideration. How many more of these honeycombed hedgerows lay ahead only the Germans knew. Attacking such ingenious positions seemed futile.
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Very nice! Can you paint "Mirabelle" or sumfink on both sides of the turret, or does it have the "808" mirror image problem?
Actually, that's an interesting question: how long after D-Day did the "nose art" start showing up on the vehicles?
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I can tell you are all of "older" mentality. Where is the rest of the multitasking generation?? People like myself play BF while tucking in the missus and doing the bills for the next week.. efficiency!
Hmm, what's the hotkey combination that facilitates that, I wonder? And is it RT or WeGo?
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....In a largely empty room right now.
But the modern warfare folks will be back soon.
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Last time this came up, Steve indicated that building damage was on their list for further development, but they weren't holding up the train over it.
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Spent an hour trying to get the water tile to appear more brown and less gray. No success yet.
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Well, looks like this and all other CMSF projects are about to be back-burnered for the next couple of months. Summertime is upon us too; no more excuses to lounge about indoors.
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In the last thread to go on at length about effectiveness (or lack thereof) of "tank busting" aircraft, I noted that in WWII just about any armoured or gun-mounting vehicle would very likely be referred to by a pilot as a "tank". This takes in all kinds of thinly armoured and open-topped AFVs such as halftracks, prime movers and SP guns whose interiors and crews would readily be chewed up by .50cal or 20mm cannon shells.
Also, for those who insist that German MBTs, especially Kittehs cannot be knocked out by anything but a "fluke" direct bomb hit, consider the following....
Looks like an engine fire to me, ignited by .50 cals or maybe a rocket punching through the comparatively thin engine grill cover. And a caption on another edition of that photo that I can't find identifies these kids as pilots from a specific P-47 squadron inspecting their own handiwork.
A "probable" outcome of a strafing or rocket attack, no. Impossible, also no.
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Further musings on the topic of airstrikes, map detail, bangs and immersion....
I don't own or play Arma2 (or any video game other than CM), and I know BFC doesn't encourage cross-comparisons here on the forum. But I am just riveted by some of the player videos on the web. The level of photorealism you can create with a gazillion dollar budget and an army of offshore programmers is quite astonishing. I really had no idea how far the art had advanced (at least for those with a decent rig or an XBox).
Check
for example (mute the sound if you aren't into Eurotrash technopop) -- the first 1:15 is pure Hog worship, but fast forward to the air strike and you'll see what I mean.On the other hand, for all that amazing chrome, this same map with the airstrip and the village seems to feature in about half the videos I saw. Looks like Serbian paramilitaries are invading Vermont or sumfink. And while the explosions do have more oily grit, debris and flames in them, they still aren't convincing. Finally, I am completed underwhelmed by the limited number of AI troop animations and reactions.
EDIT: OK, I guess I have to take back the "
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Good info, thanks, and definitely helps put that "weary but experienced German" meme into context. To paraphrase the great GI cartoonist Bill Mauldin, front line veterans in all armies "are fugitives from th' law of averages".
Many of us tend to forget that even though Operation Bagration (aka "The Destruction of AG Center") was contemporaneous with Normandy, that was only the latest (and largest) in a series of catastrophic defeats the Red Army had inflicted on the Germans over the prior 18 months.
Between December 1942 and June 1944, the German armed forces (SS included) had already been "bled white" , as they were systematically driven out of the Ukraine and the Volkhov by highly motivated and increasingly skillful Soviet forces and commanders.
Many of us are tainted by German-slanted Cold War memoirs, Tamiya dioramas and PanzerBlitz / ASL. So when we think of this "middle passage", we only know about either German tactical victories, or "glorious" defeats where the faceless Bolshevik hordes paid dearly for their gains, e.g. Third Kharkov, Prokhorovka, Kanev, Nikopol, Krivoy Rog, Zhitomir.
But the vastly more significant battles were (among many others) Orel, Bukrin, Crimea, Brusilov, Novgorod, Korsun and Tarnopol. And the Germans best placed to recall these defeats mostly didn't survive to tell the tale, while the Russian accounts weren't deemed interesting until after 1989.
Bottom line: by June 1944, many of the highly skilled and veteran officers and men from the years of Blitzkrieg had been killed, maimed or captured (also, losses in North Africa and Italy were not insignificant). And while the belated mobilization of Nazi Germany for total war did put higher quality weapons in the hands of their replacements, neither that nor fanaticism could offset the irreplaceable loss of experience (or the exhaustive individual and unit training that had once been the norm).
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You call that an air strike.
Now
This is an air strike.
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Yes, I wondered about that too.
But as I commented in the other thread, I could imagine the flickering light and shadows cast by descending illum rounds being rather a CPU hog. I'd love to see it, since I love night actions.
I'd also love to see some kind of "dummy" unit akin to a Spy (but with zero spotting ability of its own or ability to retrieve weapons) that (mostly) Germans could move about at night to trick green Allied troops into opening fire and giving away their positions to "real" German units in the vicinity.
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Interesting -- and appropriate -- that a thread on the SS devolved so quickly into a discussion of battlefield atrocities.
Also, I recall from my Panzer Leader wargaming days that SS Panzer units had a full strength establishment of 5 panzers per platoon instead of the Wehrmacht's 4. Is that true?
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I'm no animal husbandry grog, but I believe haystacks may also be left out in the fields year round. You bring hay into haylofts if you're stabling animals in the winter. Otherwise, you'd likely just fork some hay from the stack out on top of the snow for pasturage.
Perhaps things are handled differently in the more inclement parts of Europe where snow drifts so deeply that neither men nor animals can get out into the fields.
In addition to the Foy assault in BoB where the attackers took temporary cover amid haystacks (January '45), there's also an anecdote from Russia (is it Guy Sajer?) where temperatures dropped so low that opposing troops declared a temporary truce and forsook their trenches to take shelter in some haystacks -- often the same one.
As to no plowed fields in summer, I think you're right. Most fields will have some kind of crop growing by mid summer (e.g. "knee high by the Fourth of July"), or else be fallow meadows (long grass and flowers).
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How realistic is it to be able to precisely guide air strikes?
No more unrealistic than the degree of control you as commander exert over any of your other units. That said, I'd expect that arrival time is very much not under your control, and that misident (FF) risk is very high.
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I suspect that battlefield capture is extraordinarily situation dependent....
If you've just pulverized the enemy line with artillery for an hour and then advanced against only scattered opposition, you may be only too happy to accept the surrender of dazed enemy soldiers emerging from their entrenchments, not because you pity them, but because you want to encourage their buddies to follow likewise rather than having to grenade every last hole.
On the other hand, if you've had to close assault these positions and a whole bunch of your buddies have fallen doing so, then your adrenaline and hatred and bloodlust are up and you're probably not going to be inclined to take the bastards alive. And they likely know it and are trying to get the hell away.
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But now that BFC has put in a "linear target" mode, why can't the aircraft bomb, rocket and strafe along the line instead of across it?
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Sorry if I'm stealing "Scrunchie90"s thunder here, but....
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In 1984 I played AH's "Dnieper River Line", which was basically a single scenario Panzerblitz boardgame with a computer opponent playing the Russians (not well, I kicked its arse).
But M1 Tank Platoon was the only other computer game I can think of that came close to the functionality of CM.
The Talonsoft games were basically conventional hex wargames -- Panzerblitz again.
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Interesting thread here.
As to the Canadians, my relatives who were all infantrymen with the various Maritimes regiments, related (to my Mum, who was interested in such things) that while they were fairly businesslike with the Germans in Italy (we're willing to take them prisoner as long as they take ours), after 12 SS shot those Saskatchewan boys at the Ardenne Abbey the consensus became that "well if that's how they want to play, fine".
And this is hearsay possibly tinged with bigotry, but they also claimed that the French-speaking units pretty much shot all their Hun prisoners (SS and other) in the woods at the end of the day.
Atrocities aside, the standard German practices of sniping, mining and booby-trapping were also instrumental in creating significant animosity among the Allied troops, as these measures were (incorrectly) seen as serving no "legitimate" tactical purpose other than to kill and maim in an indiscriminate way. Unlike carpet bombing of course....
That said, of the German losses in France, I believe close to half were prisoners. While many may have been negotiated full unit surrenders (e.g. Cherbourg), I suspect that there were plenty of prisoners taken on the battlefield.
Fortification near bocage - is it right that it doesn't work?
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
Which is great since if your troops are shelled or flanked they can get down from the berm and take cover in the trench. It looks like you can also fiddle with the editor to combine a 3m embankment with hedge and/or dense forest to create your own bocage tile that bunkers, guns and vehicles can emplace on or in. Takes just a little fiddling to get it looking nice
The CMx2 Editor is quite powerful and can create highly realistic maps if you understand the game mechanics and put some thought into it. That's why I've been so passionate about enabling copy-paste terrain so map grogs can build prefab "tile sets" for those who want to focus on the battle design and AI.