The_Capt

I will add my two cents worth. The MGs in CM are weak. Not totally ineffective but weak. I have run no tests but I have seen way too many human wave assaults suceed when they really shouldn't. I have seen two well sighted MMGs in action and the damage done to a coy in open ground was truly horrendous. It wasn't one squad or two, the whole coy was in the dirt. Mortars finished them off. The problem is that MGs have a "beaten zone" which is an area on the ground where the bullets will land. For the ole 1919 MG or C-5 GPMG as we refered to it the zone was (and I may be a little off it has been 10 years) an about 50x100m egg-shaped circle on the ground. Anybody in that circle when the BBs are flying is going to duck or die. In CM there is a "beaten zone" but it is far too thin, you will catch three squads if they are line abreast (in defilade) but if they stagger forget it. The beaten zone needs to be "widened". Lastly, crews for like mad when being close assaulted (from another first hand observation). They will burn out barrels if a squad or platoon starts charging. In CM I have yet to see an increase in fire when this happens. An MG needs to be rendered like the area weapon it is, capable of covering an arc and beaten zone, as well as situation increased fire. Now I don't know if that is possible from a programmers point of view, I am only stating the facts from what I have been taught and seen. Of course everybody needs to remember that this is a "game" and not everything is going to be modeled perfectly, so you need to adapt your tactics to fit.

Thanks fellas, I had a blast writing it. I will post a quick response to a couple of people though; Micheal. Your comment on my view being simplistic is "bang on". Everybody here is a mix of all three with a dash of "peppa". With the exception of you who seem to contain a healthy dose of vanilla . Seriously you seem like a great guy, let's get together, get loaded and skeet shoot chickens sometime. ScoutPl. I am hurt, I love Grogs. And you sir, are definitly well entrenched in their camp. So using basic logic. I love you, Mr ScoutPl. In a macho, manly way which does not involve anything sticky. Let's get drunk and skeet shoot chickens, you can bring the WWII K98 and we can test out you theories. CM till you go blind, then hire a monkey to play for you! The_Capt

I was contemplating a new topic for the discussion of the week (CM and 19th century existentialism, or however you spell it) when I noticed that the evil topic of gameyness has resurfaced. So in an attempt to dispel all doubt on what is right and wrong from the minds of the unwashed masses here is a re-print (and slightly re-edited) of my spin on the subject. For those who have already read it, I apologize, so go read something else. My spin on the greatest question of our generation: "When are you being gamey?" My opinion All of CM is "gamey", not unlike a fine free range North West Territory ptarmigan. For those who don't know what a ptarmigan is, it is like a partridge (not the dysfunctional 70s family but the bird, although you could shoot and eat the family but I have no idea how they would taste. Although the older sister...what was her name again...whoops, time to come back, this is not that kind of forum). CM is a game after all and not actual warfare(although if you've spent more than a few months here on the forum you may argue that point). The creators have kept this in mind by allowing players to do, whatever the hell they want(c'ept Fionn of course Hey easy now I joke cause I love). The only "rules" are those agreed upon by two opponents. In my opinion some members of this community wish to pursue CM as a historical simulator. I personally think this is an empty goal and unattainable. And I can sight dozens of problems between the game and reality, like the little men in CM are NOT REAL!!..BUT it doesn't make it any less fun nor negate their attempt (though somewhat sad in my simple mind) to try. So if you want to recreate a WWII battle down to "cap badges and weapons sights" go ahead. And try and find like minded players who are also willing to play in this frame. BUT you are not better or superior because you do and we are not lesser people undeserving of the "holy piece of software, sacred binary code upon whom all others look pale and pasty, that's right, put your hands together. Can I have an Amen! Praise Combat Mission!! Ahem, cough cough." You (and I am talking to mostly Grogs here) have only decided to play the GAME a certain way. The rest of us (and I group myself)look at CM as a game and will use everything we can in the game to win or (lose as has been the case lately). So if it is a coy of flamethowers lighting up everything in sight like a Mongolian barbecue chef gone postal, and your opponent is OK with it, PLAY ON! Problems and conflict arise when one camp bumps into the other. A die-in-the wool Grog meets a half-liquored Friday night CM Goon whose girlfriend/wife wants nothing to do with him (or her...well you know what I mean just switch the gender labels around for you girls...both of you). They fail to establish "ground rules" and charge into a doomed battle. The Grog, with his AFV posters and manuals is slaving over which Allied doctrine to try and modelling his unit purchases against WWII OOBs. "Now did Capt Johnson have a single or gold plated command rating? Well let's see how he fought at Anzio..." and so on. The Half-Baked Goon; "OK let's see what a map with nothin but Arty FOs and freakin TRPs will do..heh,heh. Oh ya I'll throw in 12 jeeps cause they burn good....man I am hungry....and thirsty. What is taking this guy so f#$4ing long." Now our two warriors meet. The Grog has a perfect Bn advance as per the "Closing of the Falaise Gap"..."Now which coy actually was forward left..." The Goon sits and giggles "C'mon you pansy assed Brit Sh$t eaters...come to Fritzy....atta boy" Boom! Arty starts dropping like bird crap at a beach wedding. The Grog "oh my now what was the allied drill...ah yes...very good..oh my he is using it all up at once...I think vonGoosestep tried that in Italy but this is France tsk, tsk." Goon " WOOOO-HOOO!!....(to sleeping boy/girlfriend)...you see that?! Now for the big stuff, 300mm and another beer...belch". BOOM, KA-F$#%ing-BOOM!!! Grog; "Oh my, well let me see an Axis SS Division has ###long range arty assets...oh my! That doesn't seem right. My opponent will very "red-faced" when he sees his mistake, tee-hee....Oh dear there goes Stanley's Coy.." Goon; "TAKE THAT!! AHHHH-HAHAHAHAHA. I love this freakin game, I swear I saw bodies flyin. Oh sorry dear.....And now for the jeeps." Jeep assault onto hill 130 is carried out. Grog; "Now I am afraid he has gone too far...time for a stern chat message.." Goon; "I wonder what's on Fox or wait I think that Arts channel has Euro-porn on at 11..." Chat message: GenAllisterMontegue: "Excuse me for saying but your force purchase seems a little excesive in the Artillery and Recon assets." JOhnnyRottAN: "What do yu meen?" GenAllisterMantegue: "Well if you consult "ALL THINGS AXIS" the 1998 edition, you will see that you simply do not have the amounts you are using here." JOhnnyRottAN: "Hey pal! If it works, it anin't broken...you callin me GAMEY?!!!:{" And we can all see hard feelings and anger which will result as the exchange degrades into....a forum thread. As an aside the freaks out there have a slightly different approach, they establish ground rules then quickly proceed to ignore them. ALL'S FAIR IN LUST AND WAR DICK_HEAD!!!!! I RULE!!! WASSSUPPP!!! So the only rules are ones you mutually decide on and in the long run it is only God you will have to answer to in the end (and yes I am sure He plays CM, big on Allies but he really hates the Sherman). So happy gaming and let's just be friends. And go our there and kill each other CM style! Authors Note: Now for any out there who feel that this is a cheap re-post of a former topic to avoid having to actually think this week, you are absolutely right. I figure I can get one more mile out of this piece of work and then will actually have to pump out something original and if you don't like it SCREW YOU DICK_HEAD!!! I RULE!!!! WASSSSAAAAAP!!!

A wonderful mongrel

I believe they represent route denial obstacles which could not be cleared in the timeframe of a CM battle. Abatis, crater groups and the such.

OK guys settle down, I think the young lad is trying to make a point but as is the curse of youth has "no idea how to do it". So rather than get all high and might "Harummph...how dare he, I play FPS all the time" let's try and be constructive. I think his point underlines why the wargaming genre is "fringe" in the first place. And anybody who doesn't think we are can go check the best seller lists at PC mag or something. FPS far outsell and out-hype anywargame on a regular basis. In the past it was because the old wargames weren't sexy or all that exciting unless you really got into them and had a passion for the genre. CM is 3-D and looks good. So I am sure there has been plenty of people checking it out, who have no experience in wargaming. In fact I have read articles stating as much. So when they get to play the demo, I am sure confusion results. It looks like an RTS but plays like a turn-based. The requirment to "know the units" is very high if you don't want to get creamed. Does this mean that CM is a "Grog game in Twitch clothing"...yes and no. The main aim, I belive was to give the niche wargaming community the eye candy and real immersive terrain we have been aching for but I think it unintentionally does attract people from the outside because of it. The beauty is that we are going to get converts as the technology gets better. and converts means more money for he development of better games and a broadening of the community. So rather than blindly "taking offence" and "personalizing" the young lads comments. Try and see where he is trying to go with this.

OK in an attempt to provide something with a little more substance to this fine Forum, I have decided to begin a weekly (or at least until I get banned/bored) "view from here" and running commentary on the life affirming event..known as Combat Mission. I will start by "not apologizing" for spelling errors or politically incorrect views and to paraphrase everything I say as "My Opinion". Take it or leave it. Now onto the first issue: I have had the opportunity to read and be a part of this fine community for about 4 months now. I have laughed and cried with the regular members and participated in threads, both intellectual and low-brow. In that time, the character of the CM players has become more and more clear. I will attempt to provide a mirror of self reflection to help you, know yourself, and in the future to at least know to whom you are talking. I hope this will possibly prevent any conflict or strife by "empowering", everyone of us, with an insight into what makes the other guy (or girl..both of you) tick. Now in CM I have noticed three distinct types: The Grogs The Goons The Freaks Each type has a place in this hallowed place. And thru the miracle of the Internet the three types of people can enjoy each others company even though in nature they would be regularly avoiding each other. Yes here at the Forum, the lion has laid down with the lamb, the mongoose and the snake sip sherry and discuss Wayne Newton and all creatures great and small enjoy this small piece of heaven. In real life most of these types wouldn't "cross the street to piss on the other guy if his guts were on fire" but here we can all join hands and bond. Now let's start with those who got here first and will be the last to leave. When CM is a pleasant memory for the rest, these people will still be here furiously devoted to the game. The Grogs. Short for Grognards, these are the people who know more about the weapons, vehicles, doctrine, tactics and hairstyles than the actual people who fought the damn war in the first place. Now many might think them a bunch of "necks-like-buggy whips", elitist, arrogant, long winded bastards BUT do not be so hasty. Wher would we be without them. They are the intellicia (or whatever that big word is I am sure one will tell me) of this place. Without them who would know that the Panther turret speed is with the engine running at 1200 rpm. Who could keep us abreast of 1940s era ammo technology and its application to the Normandy campaign, especially when one has to take humidity into account. Lastly, who could tell us how many times Hitler scratched his ass before saying, "Ya what the hell, I think we can take Moscow". We would be woefully uninformed of these details without the Grogs. We are also fortunate enough that they are always there to remind us of that fact. Now the second group is no less dedicated but definitely more challenged. The Goons. This group is made up of a large collection of 30-somethings who loved games as a kid, grew up, had sex and liked it, got real life experience and a life. And now are desperately trying to forget the whole thing and "grow down" again. This group seeks the bliss of pure fun in order to be able to forget; the mortgage, the kids, the wife, erectile dysfunction and emotional baldness. They are married, cause at twenty it seemed like a good idea. Mainly because she let them touch her "naughty bits" but the appeal and frequency of those "bits" seeing daylight has grown less and less with each New Year. So now they play CM. The Goons naturally resent the Grogs, as they would love to immerse themselves into the game but unfortunately have the responsibility and pain of the Great Burden to endure, until mercifully they can die young and finally get some sleep. I believe that if the Grogs are the Brain than the Goons are the Backbone. They have the money and desire and should be milked for both. Now the last group, the Freaks. Remind us that nothing truly good can come for free. They are the heart disease that comes with good food, the Clap with...well you get the idea. The Freaks are counter-culture. They are the first to get a thread locked down and the last to admit it. I of course support their presence, they give the Forum spice. Without them who would we have to flame and not feel guilty. Now you may be confused as you read this. "But Capt, who am I? Where do I fit in?" Well my friend, I have created a simple questionaire to aid you on the road to self discovery. Now answer honestly: Question 1. When a member of the forum complains that his wife/girlfriend (or vice gender versa for the two ladies) is constantly getting in the way of gameplay and is threatening to take it away, you... a. Wife? Girlfriend? Is that like a mother. b. I hear you brother! My ol' lady's been barkin at me for the last week. c. BITCH SLAP HER WITH A HAMMER UNTIL SHE SQUEALS LIKE A KANSAS POTBELLY AND GIVES BACK THE FREAKIN GAME..YA WHIMP! Question 2. You would characterize the Artillery in CM as.. a. A fairly accurate characterization of indirect fire capability of the forces engaged in WWII Normandy...but you have noticed... b. Pretty cool and fun to use but those 81mm can't do dick. c. THEY SUCK, CAUSE THEY GOT NO FREAKIN NAPALM. JUST LIKE IN NAM...! Question 3. You would describe you CM addiction as.. a. A healthy education in the tactical intricacies of WWII western Front. b. "THIS GAME IS RUINING MY LIFE!" I forgot my sons name this morning..so I re-named him Hummel..it's just easier that way. Crap! I am dreaming about this game now!!! c. WHAT ADDICTION!? THIS GAME SUX AND SO DO YOU AHAHAHAHAH!!?? Question 4. When a OT thread asks how many push ups you can do you respond.. A. (Ignoring the "pain of gain" the typing of the response is giving those twigs you call arms) Well what a foolish question..must have been posted by a "jock". I will have to bereate him on the irrelavence and challenge him to a QB to sort out who the "man"is here. B. Fifty (a lie, you could do fifty, 10 years ago but now would be lucky to pump out 30 and you don't anyway cause the "snaping" sound your elbow makes just freaks the cats out anyway) C. ONLY AS MANY AS I NEED TO GET OFF BABY!!!WOOOO-HOOOO!!!! Question 5. While playing CM you decide to have a drink, you pour a... a. Fine Scotch, just like they did before taking Caen. Then a decent port as I salute my defeated opponent in the tradition of the Klingon...er Prussian Officer Code. b. A rum and coke with no ice cause apperantly "I forgot to fill the damn tray again...s'pose to be her job mumblegrumble". Than a beer cause it at least is cold. And then another beer cause this nerd is just about finished beating me and the wife looks like she needs "some lovin". Booze makes me charming. c. TEQUILA STRAIGHT UP!!! When I can break into Dads liquor cabinet...and the babysitter isn't watching...BUT I STILL ROCK!!! Now if you have kept score and expect a result. Place yourself in the Grog camp. If you laughed...said "Hey wait a minute" and laughed again. Or were interrupted twice while reading this...you my friend are a Goon. If you didn't understand the humour or thought "THIS SUX" at least once you are a Freak but we still love you. So there it is, I will welcome comments or suggestions for next week. I hope you enjoy.

The secret is to phase your addiction First AI single player, Then PBEMs Finally IP games, Then join a ladder and get competitive. kept me going this long and I think it will be awhile before I am done

I originally posted this in the Thin Recon thread but it is getting lost in the shuffle so I will re-print here for comments. My spin on the greatest question of our generation: "When am I being gamey?" My opinion All of CM is "gamey" it is a game. The creators have kept this in mind by allowing players to do, whatever the hell they want. The only "rules" are those agreed upon by two opponents. In my opinion some members of this community wish to pursue CM as a historical simulator. I think this is an empty goal and unattainable. And I can sight dozens of problems between the game and reality..BUT it doesn't make it any less fun nor negate their attempt to try. So if you want to recreate a WWII battle down to "cap badges and weapons sights" go ahead. And try and find like minded players who are also willing to play in this frame. BUT you are not better or superior because you do. You have only decided to play the GAME a certain way. The rest of us (and I group myself)look at CM as a game and will use everything we can in the game to win. So if it is a coy of flamethowers and your opponent is OK with it, PLAY ON! Problems and conflict arise when one camp bumps into the other. A die-in-the wool grognard meets a half-liquored Friday night CM goon whose girlfriend/wife wants nothing to do with him (or her...well you know what I mean just switch the gender labels around for you girls...both of you). They fail to establish "ground rules" and charge into a doomed battle. The Grognard, with his AFV posters and manuals is slaving over which Allied doctrine to try and modelling his unit purchases against WWII OOBs. "Now did Capt Johnson have a single or gold plated command rating? Well let's see how he fought at Anzio..." and so on. The Half-Baked Goon; "OK let's see what a map with nothin but Arty FOs and freakin TRPs will do..heh,heh. Oh ya I'll throw in 12 jeeps cause they burn good....man I am hungry....and thirsty. What is taking this guy so f#$4ing long." Now our two warriors meet. The Grognard has a perfect Bn advance as per the "Closing of the Falaise Gap"..."Now which coy actually was forward left..." The Goon sits and giggles "C'mon you pansy assed Brit Sh$t eaters...come to Fritzy....atta boy" Boom! Arty starts dropping like bird crap at a beach wedding. The Grognard "oh my now what was the allied drill...ah yes...very good..oh my he is using it all up at once...I think vonGoosestep tried that in Italy but this is France tsk, tsk." Goon " WOOOO-HOOO!!....(to sleeping boy/girlfriend)...you see that?! Now for the big stuff, 300mm and another beer...belch". BOOM, KA-F$#%ing-BOOM!!! Grognard; "Oh my, well let me see an Axis SS Division has ###long range arty assets...oh my! That doesn't seem right. My opponent will very "red-faced" when he sees his mistake, tee-hee....Oh dear there goes Stanley's Coy.." Goon; "TAKE THAT!! AHHHH-HAHAHAHAHA. I love this freakin game, I swear I saw bodies flyin. Oh sorry dear.....And now for the jeeps." Jeep assault onto hill 130 is carried out. Grognard; "Now I am afraid he has gone too far...time for a stern chat message.." Goon; "I wonder what's on Fox or wait I think that Arts channel has Euro-porn on at 11..." Chat message: GenAllisterMontegue: "Excuse me for saying but your force purchase seems a little excesive in the Artillery and Recon assets." JOhnnyRottAN: "What do yu meen?" GenAllisterMantegue: "Well if you consult "ALL THINGS AXIS" the 1998 edition, you will see that you simply do not have the amounts you are using here." JOhnnyRottAN: "Hey pal! If it works, it anin't broken...you callin me GAMEY?!!!:{" And we can all see hard feelings and anger which will result as the exchange degrades into....a forum thread. So the only rules are ones you mutually decide on and in the long run it is only God you will have to answer to in the end. So happy gaming and let's just be friends. And go our there and kill each other CM style!

I think the two views mentioned by Mr. Bullethead and supported by others are too simplistic. It isn't a question of top-down or bottom up, it is a question of historical versus game play. All of CM is "gamey" it is a game. The creators have kept this in mind by allowing players to do, whatever the hell they want. The only "rules" are those agreed upon by two opponents. In my opinion some members of this community wish to pursue CM as a historical simulator. I think this is an empty goal and unattainable. And I can sight dozens of problems between the game and reality..BUT it doesn't make it any less fun nor negate their attempt to try. So if you want to recreate a WWII battle down to "cap badges and weapons sights" go ahead. And try and find like minded players who are also willing to play in this frame. BUT you are not better or superior because you do. You have only decided to play the GAME a certain way. The rest of us (and I group myself)look at CM as a game and will use everything we can in the game to win. So if it is a coy of flamethowers and your opponent is OK with it, PLAY ON! Problems and conflict arise when one camp bumps into the other. A die-in-the wool grognard meets a half-liquored Friday night CM goon whose girlfriend/wife wants nothing to do with him (or her...well you know what I mean just switch the gender labels around for you girls...both of you). They fail to establish "ground rules" and charge into a doomed battle. The Grognard, with his AFV posters and manuals is slaving over which Allied doctrine to try and modelling his unit purchases against WWII OOBs. "Now did Capt Johnson have a single or gold plated command rating? Well let's see how he fought at Anzio..." and so on. The Half-Baked Goon; "OK let's see what a map with nothin but Arty FOs and freakin TRPs will do..heh,heh. Oh ya I'll throw in 12 jeeps cause they burn good....man I am hungry....and thirsty. What is taking this guy so f#$4ing long." Now our two warriors meet. The Grognard has a perfect Bn advance as per the "Closing of the Falaise Gap"..."Now which coy actually was forward left..." The Goon sits and giggles "C'mon you pansy assed Brit Sh$t eaters...come to Fritzy....atta boy" Boom! Arty starts dropping like bird crap at a beach wedding. The Grognard "oh my now what was the allied drill...ah yes...very good..oh my he is using it all up at once...I think vonGoosestep tried that in Italy but this is France tsk, tsk." Goon " WOOOO-HOOO!!....(to sleeping boy/girlfriend)...you see that?! Now for the big stuff, 300mm and another beer...belch". BOOM, KA-F$#%ing-BOOM!!! Grognard; "Oh my, well let me see an Axis SS Division has ###long range arty assets...oh my! That doesn't seem right. My opponent will very "red-faced" when he sees his mistake, tee-hee....Oh dear there goes Stanley's Coy.." Goon; "TAKE THAT!! AHHHH-HAHAHAHAHA. I love this freakin game, I swear I saw bodies flyin. Oh sorry dear.....And now for the jeeps." Jeep assault onto hill 130 is carried out. Grognard; "Now I am afraid he has gone too far...time for a stern chat message.." Goon; "I wonder what's on Fox or wait I think that Arts channel has Euro-porn on at 11..." Chat message: GenAllisterMontegue: "Excuse me for saying but your force purchase seems a little excesive in the Artillery and Recon assets." JOhnnyRottAN: "What do yu meen?" GenAllisterMantegue: "Well if you consult "ALL THINGS AXIS" the 1998 edition, you will see that you simply do not have the amounts you are using here." JOhnnyRottAN: "Hey pal! If it works, it anin't broken...you callin me GAMEY?!!!:{" And we can all see hard feelings and anger which will result as the exchange degrades into....a forum thread. So the only rules are ones you mutually decide on and in the long run it is only God you will have to answer to in the end. So happy gaming and let's just be friends.

OK, I see a lot of different views on this subject so I will put in one last input. The concept trivializes the profession of arms far beyond any computer game. A computer game is a picture (a moving one) of warfare. We can all point out a hundred differences between reality and CM. CM and the like are games which simulate some of the aspects of armed conflict. Anybody can play them for individual reward and gratification. The TV show as presented, charges over that line by taking trained troops and having them apply real-world tactics to a "game" for commercial gratification. This brings the soldiers and parades them in front of the world as they demonstrate their craft. The only thing missing is the blood. In my mind this is exploitation and crosses too far into reality. Not unlike my views toward Soldier of Fortune which took shooting people to an unhealthy level. The service of arms is it's people and so long as you leave direct involvement of the troops out of it hey fill your boots, I have no problem with firepower demos or equipment shows. Once you parade real soldiers (who are in fact the soul of any Army) and have them do tricks for the mass media, so long as they get paid. I have a problem with that. Now that is my opinion and I won't be watching but seeing as this is a wonderfully free set of countries you may watch what you wish. I would only point out that in my opinion the show lacks class and is in bad taste.

I am not sure of what the use in WWII was but in modern warfare sharpshooters are usually attached to a parent unit and have training in the use of the scoped rifle. The sharpshooter is , much as in SPR, the local commanders counter-sniper and harassing fire asset. An inf Bn (Canadian one anyway) has a recce platoon in which the traditional "sniper" supports the Bn and Bde in Long Range Patrolling etc. These guys crawl around in "gilly" (sp?) suits, eat snakes and pick off en COs. The SF sniper is one who operates well forward or even behind en lines and takes shots at Saddam. As to sharpshooter/snipers shooting at moving targets, trust me it happens all the time. I was in the Balkans during the war and saw some amazing sniper work, often directed at me, I am sorry to say but I can remember the BG ambulance coming in with a very nice 12 inch grouping right in the centre of the red cross, luckly no one was in the back. The ambulance had been bombing down the highway at about 60kms/hr. I was personal "led" like a duck in a jeep as another sniper tried to make another 12 inch grouping on me. So at least in that area moving targets were the norm. I think that with experience sharpshooters or whatever learn to hit moving targets better and eventually it becomes normal practice.

More importantly, Do troops who go off-board lower the sides moral? The problem is that withdrawing can trigger auto surrender, leaving troops who can still act trapped.

In my opinion, This is utter and complete crap. SF guys playin games for entertainment. Small step to send mini-Web cams with Delta guys to see the "take out the bad guys in real time". Hell let''s start a real war cause it is great for the ratings. I don't mind documentary's which take a look at the job but this is ridiculous. This show trivializes the profession of arms. What is next "Dueling surgeons"? "The first one to remove that appendix wins". Battle of the Fire Depts? As a professional soldier, I am offended. We train hard to do a job that nobody in their right mind would want to. We do it to defend our nations interests and better men than me have died to prove it. To take this and make it into a game show is evidence of just how low some people (even our own) will stoop for money. What is the difference between that and gaming? Gaming is just that, a game. It doesn't equal reality. It is designed for "challenge" enjoyment and involves the players participation. In CM we send little pieces of code at each other, this is real people doing the real job to keep other people entertained. It is professional whoring. The TV show has troops out as "dog and ponies". I guess I am just as angry at any soldier that would do this, it is a small step up from merc-ing.

Hate to say it, It is really little of me, To self: grow up Can't resist... TOLD YA SO!!!!

Anybody done any work on the Worthington Battle Group? Death at hill 140 or some such. Interesting battle, probably would have to be a CM operation. Kinda was a Custer-esk situation in which the BCRs and Algonquins(sp?) got hammered by two SS kampfgruppes.

Let's get a rope!!!! Someone find a tree!!! I feel a lynchin comin on!!!

E-mail me and I'll set it up. I am on the TH Ladder.

On the same vien but different topic, Does Cm model the actual "beaten zone" of the MG? I am finding that my MGs are effective against only one target at a time. Is this a design or user issue?

Whoops sorry Manta, that was Luftwaffe, you sound like a harmless type whom I am sure is quite the player with the ladies.

After seeing some of these responses I am filled with the warm affirmation that hardcore gamers are in fact a. 30 yr old virgins, who havn'e even seen Mr Wiggly in ten yrs cause their belly is in the way. b. A serious psychopath, who is a ticking timebomb. c. Desperate men trying to squeeze fun out of a dark world d. All of the above. PS MantaRay they have a word for your suggested technique..assault. And as someone has pointed out they don't allow PCs in jail.

Better yet, Take your addiction elsewhere and convince her you are going to become a raging boozer. You need help and CM is your Sugar-Daddy! Either that or simply break down and cry like a broken man until she gives in, woman are suckers for that. Hell that's how I got her to say "Yes" in the first place....OK maybe I said too much....

I would recommend CM for the multi-player alone. I will admit, I don't play the AI anymore but PBEMs have provided more enjoyment than any game has in a long time.

As has been requested the first attempt at the CM Bde Campaign system is currently underway. I have gained new respect for the BTS crew because just developing rules which emulate WWII combat has been a long and painful process. Essentially we have developed a two Bde model in which Bn COs are actually players. The Bde Comds communicate thru the GMs and Bn COs carry out orders independently. Thsi has opened the opportunity for loss of communications (ie Bn and Bde cannot talk due to en action) as well as Bns who may decide to try something else there Bde Comd didn't think of and ask forgivness later. There are many catches and intricacies to this and after the first game I may be open to posting a Web Site outlining the system. But I want to run thought it a few times to make sure it works. I am one Bde Comd, who in this run through commands a Battle Hardened crew using Attritionist methodology and tactics. My opponent is the notorious Fionn Kelly, who is as cantankerous as everybody makes him out to be but I think I am beginning to like him. He has a hand-pick crew from his circle of friends who are going to use Manoeuvrist methodology. In short we are going to see what happens and will keep you all posted. Except for one HARDMAN apparently.

I have read about the fact in several books and on history documentaries. Don't ask me to quote them all because there have been quite a few and hence "my common belief statement". I watch one show one the history Channel "Codebreakers" or some such and the British had code breakers in the Pacific who had access to "hints" of this information and when the invasion was reported to Churchill an eyewitness who was interviewed stated that he showed no surprise or emotion at all. Indicating he knew before-hand. I am not saying I am an expert but the British network was very well established by then, thanks to colonial influence just about everywhere. I agree that the belief in the time was battleships but a forward looking Naval officer could have easily seen the results of Airpower in the German Campaigns and draw a few conclusions. I don't know, I was just asking the question to see if anybody had any insight.