The_Capt

Gentlemen, As a good officer I must agree with a fine Snr NCO. Troops (quality depending) are trained to respond to rank...all rank, not just the ones in their chain. I've seen re-grouping done in a trench dog-fight. If two remnant sections (or as Yanks call em squads) happen onto a Platoon Sgt or Platoon Commander from the same Bn they will: 1) Recognize him and 2) Do what he says as long as it isn't suicidal. They can be coordinated in short order (a few minutes) and will perform much better than when left alone. Platoons know each other and even if all else fails, when the sh@t hits the fan they will be drawn to someone who is suppose to be in charge. Hell the Chaplin could get a grip on guys who are rattled without a mission. I'll take it one step further. Sections which are at 50% strength or less should be able to be rolled into another section. A section commander will grab these guys anyway if they are leaderless and wandering. Command and Leadership are much more complex and robust than what is portrayed in the game.

Well now that we are all in one place, let do what we all really want to do...Bad Mouth Americans!!!

I thought the addition was quite nice. I would have still bought the game with or without us in it but it is good to see. Often we get lumped in with the Brits and forgotten. They even got the flag right. To be honest, I didn't even know our troops were modeled when I ordered. I do admit to liking using them from time to time. But they do have shortcomings much like the Brits. An intersting aside, I have played the Worthington Force Scenario which is based on a British Columbia Regt action in Normandy. Vicious fight but what is really interesting is that my Grandfather actually fought in the action. He was a Sherman crewman and was in one of the eight tanks which actually got out alive.

Try "Sneak" if you can, if you are under fire or suspect arty..Run it will hurt less.

Popular misconception, What you call "Combat Engineer" is in fact reality. A prepared defensive postion is something to behold and a terror to assault. The question was posed how to improve a defenders chances. In a defence there are five critical factors. Armoured/AT firepower, Infantry Firepower, Arty firepower, Obstacles and Counter moves. The coordination of these factors are needed to defeat an assault. You cannot remove one just because it isn't fun and expect to be able to accomplish the same thing. The reason QBs don't work for the defender is simple..frontage. A Bn may get 2000m to defend, which equates to 630m per Coy with three up! If you want depth the two lead Coy will have to cover in the are of 800m. A modern inf Coy with all the bells and whistles can only cover off 700m. So you either stretch way out or suck in and leave openings. Now you are outnumbered and can be flanked/enveloped. No sane defender would go looking for this. Don't get me wrong it did happen and a lot of people died when it did. Even non-grogs can use engineers, it isn't hyper-realistic. Well anymore than armour I guess. There are other options but the QB seriously screws the defender. It can be done but you are not getting a good deal, as opposed to the attacker. I am not sure what you mean by "my version". I am not suggesting taking anything away from the game just playing it differently. You can choose to or not.

AHHHH!! THE NIGHT BEFORE!!! Ok deep breath. Silent breaches can happen on the furthest obstacle belts say 2000-3000 m out but the close in ones are not going to be touched and will be attacked in the face of the enemy. Sorry but the ignorance of engineer operations in this and wargames in general is enough to drive me mad. Obstacles are a real problem in CM, they have been artificially inflated in price so that their use will be limited in the interest in "gameplay". Again generally because few no how to conduct a "assault breach" and it might not be "fun". I definitely disagree to the last point, it can be a real challenge especially when done in the context of an operation. For example have a Breaching force and then an assault force. A much more realistic approach to a prepared defence. What QB defence battles really do is portray a Hasty Defence in which all has gone for sh@t. You didn't have resources to emplace obstacles and your frontage is twice the size your force and reasonably defend and you have no units left or right to tie into. BTS found this out and tailored forces to match as best they could, hence an attack with only 1.5 to 1 odds, when 3 to 1 is what is needed in RL. Even at 1.5, as has been noted it is damn hard. On the topic of the post I have a few suggestions: A. Don't QB, generate a scenario map, which both sides can see before playing. Have the attacker, attack down a reasonable frontage, no more than 1200m for a Bn sized force (say 3000 point game). B. "Obstacles are free". Yup you heard me, come to an greement as to engineer works in the game and give em to the defender. The attacker will require some more engineer resources (also free) but it allows the defender an obstacle plan. Oh ya this should include TRPs. C. "Pillboxes". Allow them, makes life a lot harder for a defender. D. Number of turns is a good idea but if you give the advantages above, you need to give an attacker a lot more time. Turn balance is critical. There are a few ideas. I think the QB defensive battles don't work. MEs and of course attacks (heh heh) but on the defence the balance is just too lop-sided.

For those sharks out there, I am sure you will find 3 spelling errors in my last post. I will state now that they were intentional and designed for emphasis only...(hey Fritzy do you think they bought it??...)

Panzerman, OK a couple of points and then I let it go cause I am getting the "I am kicking a puppy" itch in that dark black closet I call a conscience. First of all you seem like a decent enough lad and I am always heartened to see a young man taking an interest in war. May I suggest you join the Reserves, there are quite a few good units in Vancouver and they are taking 16 yr olds now...try 6 Field Engineer Squadron and make an ols Sapper happy. I would caution you to be a little more careful in the tone of your posts. This is an imperfect medium and sometimes things are lost and picked up in transmission. As I said a newbie would feel pretty small right now, like he really screwed up and may be pushed into a state of permanent "Lurkerdom". Second, my sweet Lord! Just what in the hell are my taxes paying for?!! I mean I am an old grunt with Science degree and no perfect speler but son just what in the hell was that last post? I will give you a small peice of advice, which you will ignore, but someday you may throw at your kids (and judging by the way things are going they will be grunting and whistling) someday. Get a dictionary and a thesaurus, people will take you much more seriously if you can express thoughts clearly. And here is another hot tip, women love a man who can write like a hot-damn, makes em wonder what else you can do really well Har har har! Lastly for Terence; You diplomatic sweet talking son-of-a-gun. You keep talkin like that and I am going to get a serious crush on you!!

Excuse me Commisar but if yu had only used the Search Injin you would have seen that yu are not telling the truth...dumby stinky head....

OK, I think I am starting to get this..Panzerman I think the last three letters of your handle are stretching reality. Judging by your listed occupation, I think I am conversing with a young person here. And being a youth of the modern age, Schools, society and life in general has left you without the gift of common courtesy. So for your benifit I offer the following: The_Capt: "Hey guys when is BTS going to offer stocks publicly so I can get rich and start a serious alcohol slide into an early but fun grave?" Panzerman answer #1: " Hey doood, I am wit you on dat one but I think they have said that that is a big no-go-show. I think I saw dat on a thread somewhere..why don;t you try the search engine." or if we really want to impress.. Pazerman answer #2: "Rightious!!! But the downer is that BTS has said NO WAY!! Here are the threads where they said it xxxxxxx". or even Panzerman thinks "Man what a dumb question..been asked a thousand times. Well not worth typing a response to...moving on..oh look the Bi-Monthly Lurker is out again..Down in a minute Mom...no one understands me....etc" Thus endeth the lesson

Hey Panzerman, My that was a heartfelt apology..I am shedding tears here. First of all 192 posts and playing since last Oct does not equal "new people". I am well aware of the search engine and as I pointed out there is little on this. If you are so "in the know" maybe you could post the link to your "inner crowd" information so that all us unwashed heathens can stop wasting your time..which I am sure you will spend in a contructive and wonderfully human justifying manner. In short don't even try and back peddle here, if I was a newbie I would be seriously intimidated and made to feel small...that is bullying where I come from, unfortunately for you, you beaked off to someone who has been here for a while and now is calling you up on it. Now I think I have my pound of flesh..although it was under done and gamey (pun intended) as hell. I guess the answer is no...to bad good way to raise money for the warchest when Microsoft makes 20 clones and ups the bar. Oh well if they change their mind I am in.

You know, nothing really ticks me off, like somebody who yips off like that. It intimidates newbies and just pisses off old-dogs like myself. A) Time for search engine to locate stock options topic...4 mins 16 secs # of hits = 3 C) Hits, two previous thread dating back to last year one not helpful the other 6 pages long and after a 45 sec search gave up and of course my thread. D) Time to type my thread question approx 30 secs. E) Time to read, well even though I could open up with a few insults here I won't so say 5 secs. F) Time to type snarky response (again avoiding easy insults and reference to typos) 30 secs. G) Grand total of my time wasted 30 secs H) Grand total of Panzermans precious, sands thru the hourglass wasted 35 sec, 30 of that his own doing. So in short, I apologize for wasting 35 secs of your life my friend because it is obviously worth more than 5 mins of mine...oh just a thought...PERHAPS BTS HAS HAD A CHANGE OF PLANS IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS!!! DO YOU MIND IF I ASK?!!! Or have I somehow missed you appointment as Supreme Watchdog of the CM forum?! Now Admin can answer my question and lock this thing up.

I want a piece of the pie before CM2 comes out!!!! When are you guys going public?!!

Damn near immposible in RL. I mean you could but the ground would be so banged up that it would probably slow down your own troops more than the minefield was suppose to. Plus the resources required, arty-wise would be much better applied to the acutal enemy locations. And then while they are trying to avoid the rain of steel the Engineers can come in and clear a lane.

Damn near immposible in RL. I mean you could but the ground would be so banged up that it would probably slow down your own troops more than the minefield was suppose to. Plus the resources required, arty-wise would be much better applied to the acutal enemy locations. And then while they are trying to avoid the rain of steel the Engineers can come in and clear a lane.

And how about the Close Combatesk list of active weapons!!!! It is a rip-off but a very good one. I am not sure what the thing with the vehicle with the bars around it is though. Dear God I hope those aren't "Energy Shields"!!!

Thank you Michael, The Grog elite have begun... tero, that practice is a lot older than the Red Army and as recent as Bosnia.

Take a good look at the new info bar/interface on the bottom..very interesting. Oh ya the tank thingy looks ok too.

If want to make Engineers more relevant to the game the answer is simple...lower the cost of the current obstacles or make them bigger. The mine fields are too small for what they cost when compared to other units in the game. This would allow more use of mines and AT obstacles which would force the attacker to use his engineers as engineers and not infantry. Another key addition would be to include armoured engineers such that existed during WWII. Sig your idea has merit but the "realist Grog elite" will lay eggs at the suggestion. "Ford tiles and corduroy road!!! Just how in the Hell did they do that in front of my position?!" will be the cry. But again as with most things in CM you can always mutually agree to use or not to use.

CM2 HAD BETTER HAVE EXPLODING BANGALORE CHICKENS OR I AM GOING TO HOLD MY BREATH UNTIL I TURN BLUE....DONT THINK I WONT!

Ok settle, Now this was an shallow introspective into the hearts and minds of CM gamers. NOT an opportunity for the Peng crew to try and stage a coup! Get back in your hole cause we are tryin to eat here!!!! Now Lawyer, as much fun as a "child abduction" show may sound, it is bound to get out of control. I mean the first season will be a smash but then we'll get corrupt in order to to stay ahead of the clones. We'll start paying our children to pull a gun, burst into flame or start spouting 8th century biblical prophesies in Egyptian while exhibiting stigmata. Then we'll sell out to the entertainment overlords in L.A. to support our growing hooker and whiskey habit. Next thing you now you and I are sharing a bus stall and fighting over which corner to pee in. I'll wake up one morning to find you dead...go thru your stuff and try to harvest an organ or two. In short it is dangerous to court Fame and Riches for she is a two faced heartless bitch just like Mom.... OK I have issues but anyway...Peng guys buzz off and I will stick with my day job until the ticking sends me screaming over the edge.

Now easy there Lawyer, our booze is more expensive but it does actually contain more than a trace of my friend Al K Hall. Unlike most American swill which will give about the same buzz as bathwater. For anybody that doesn't believe my rant just check out the "What are you going to do with your SturmTiger thread". I swear grogs are going to ruin this board yet.

Well here I am again. Sitting at work with little to do. It is too early to drink and too late to call in sick. It isn't easy being a monkey keeper I can tell you. Brazilian **** Chuckers at that...no picnic at all. I can tell you trying to eat a sandwhich at lunch time can be a real adventure around here. But the pension is solid and we get doughnuts on Monday (if you can still keep food down). Well time for another look into the heart and soul of CM. Time to open the dark dank doors of that closet and shine some light into your withered souls. I see you out there with blood shot eyes and stained underwear. Burnt fingers from that forgotten cigarette in one hand, the other bloody from trying to place that 75 AT Gun in the perfect position...you havn't even noticed that your mouse stopped working 20 mins ago. OK now first thing is to simply ignore the title of this weeks rant, like a spoiled 3 yr old I was only doing it to get attention. The real topic for this "two week" editorial is....."What we really want to see in CM2" There has been an obscene amount of traffic on this topic over the last two weeks. The grogs, goons and freaks have all come out of the woodwork to add their two pennys worth to the next installment of what has become a gaming sensation. Last month a few articles hit the press with screen shots and half the board lit up. Man it was like the Smack Bus had flipped in Addictville. People were freakin out. Everything from: "Wow did you see that ISU-XXX, I saw a ISU-XXX....OH MY GAWD IT WAS BEAUTIFUL (SOBBING SOUNDS)...I can't talk about it anymore...I need to be alone.... to: "Charles and Steve are in league with Lucifer!!! Corporate bastards have sold us all out for a new car and weight set (no offence Charles but you look like you could use it...get some Sun too, your lookin downright pasty, lad). CM2 will cost $300, require a 128Mb Gas Powered Graphics Cards, A P7, the liver of a small child and will be a real time First Person Shooter, "DUKE MISSION: KICKING ASS BACK TO MOSCOW"...I FOR ONE AM OUTRAGED!!" Now once the smoke cleared the posts started: "I want to see Partisians" "I want the StrumTIGER" "I want a Kentucky Blue Grass Mod" And so forth. Now I know there is a segement out there who when CM2 arrives will curse it and swear by CM.."You can pry it from my Cold Dead fingers" type. I saw it in Counter-Strike and it will happen here. "Real men play CMBO, CM:B2B is for losers, freaks and women of negotiable virtue." That lot can move on..nothing to see here. Well be that as it may I will now list what I want to see in CM:B2B (formerly CM2)... "Churchill". No not the tank, the actual man. Short fat and bald (like most of us out there) a man after our own hearts. Oh ya! He lights demolition charges with his cigar and throws em both ways. Depending on the year of the war he'll shoot at Germans or Russians, just think of the mods.... "Mine Dogs". I am not making this up...they actually existed. I think these will be the ultimate in gamey. Imagine the look on some Grogs face when his Axis advance runs into a whole kennel of these things!!! I want to go one step further and see the Kiev Flaming Pigeon...a gallon of gas stuffed into a 4 pound bird, trust me it is for the best when the end comes. "Ghosts". The souls of your newly departed floating heavenward or the other direction depending where you buy the game. "Soundtrack". Something by Puff Wheat Daddy or maybe Jerry Halloway(or at least have her abs on the cover). A rockin soulful beat to drop shells by. Then BTS could download MP3 files so you could insert your music of choice. Planning a Human Wave assault...well young sir nothing but the Beach Boys will do! "Every vehicle in existance the time". I don't care if the only model broke down and burst into flames in the parking lot of the factory...I want to see it. I don't care if it is an Argentinian tractor...if it exsisted in 1941 I want in the game...or I am going to whine until CM3. Oh buy the way the same goes for weapons. "Full Frontal Nudity". Why Not?! I mean if I want my T-34 Tank Commander to jiggle I it should be allowed. Plus it would give BTS the radical front page coverage which will get the game selling like Myst. I mean the radical religous Right will by a couple thousand copies just to play the action turns backwards.."I saw Oasis in a snow bank!!" "Yellow Snow". Yup I am not immune to potty humour. But think about it a couple of hundred thousand guys livin in the snow...hey it's gotta go somewhere. "Just about everything which will make it so close to the real thing that I will need about 10 years of Post Traumatic Stress Counselling after playing". We want flashbacks and avoidance behaviour. I want to wake up screaming at 3 a.m. in urine soaked sheets cause I sent Volksgrenadiers to do a Strumgruppes job. I want BTS to pioneer smell-o-gaming. The sweet stench of human flesh to the pungent sniff of cordite...oh ya BABY can I have an AMEN!!! TESTIFY!!!! Ok I think that is enough for one day. Well feel free to insert your own ideas but remember we are all hooked like junkies here. Steve and Charles could put out a blank CD and half of the crew here would buy two just in case the first one breaks...I do love this game. And remember: CM till you go blind, then hire a monkey to play for you.

A quick question while we are on the topic, Has anybody out there tried a "mobile defence"? I am talking about a smaller force mounted in HTs with armour in support. You would put out a coy or so dismounted forward to feel out the enemy and then hit him in a localized area hard and fast either in a hasty defence or outright c-attack. You could team this force up with arty to stage your "hits". It has the advantage of being able to rapidly hit the en in an area of your choosing and force the local force ratio to 1:1 or better. Once the hit is over you remount and pull back for a second hit. I guess the fundemantal problem I have with the classic method is that you do not have enough resources to do it. Engineer works are too expensive and one cannot mass armour for a c-attack for the same reason. It may be better to fight a traditional "Covering Force Battle" rather than a slugfest when on simply cannot apply the required force to the frontage given. Just a thought.

Hey Parabellum, Be careful with the "reality" argument, it does cut both ways. In reality time is not measured out in 60 second chunks with infinite planning time preceding it. You want reality, take CM and crank it in Real Time with half your troops out of contact and the only thing you can control is arty and your reserve...crazy. No before I get jumped on, CM is an excellent game with a lot of realistic factors. It definitely bridges the gap between hard-core waregaming and the casual Close Combat wargaming lite. The graphics do it. But wargaming, especially hard-core gaming has been and will be on the fringe. Most people won't bother with it. CM goes a good way but you can't please everybody. So my point is quite simply "Here's to us F@#K The Rest!" or "If they don't like CM send em to Hell with a Bible in their pants!" but let's not sweat the little things.