BloodyBucket

Check out "Hatcher's Notebook". Major Hatcher was a ballistics geek of note during the WWII era. There are a couple of pictures there that are of interest. One shows a standard .30 M2 round penetrating 32 inches of oak at 200 yards. Another shows the same test at short range with much lower penetration. The bullet had not stabilised at the shorter range, so it yawed, following a curved path in the oak. Oak is pretty dense, so the idea of a .30 M2 or M2AP or M1 cartridge making it through 36 inches of soft pine seems reasonable to me. I will continue to hunt for proof.

At last! Something I can shoot for, and have a chance of hitting. With my luck, I will lose in mediocre fashion.

Why not use a board game to set the "big picture" and resolve battles with CM? Take a game, say "The Bitter Woods" or "D-Day", use the map to track overall positions and give the players points to spend on CM forces by multiplication of the counter strength, and restricting units purchased by counter type. COCAT does much the same thing, but the boardgame would be fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh sure, like we don't know you are a future Peng newbie. Hah, tell us another one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Flattery will not get you anywhere. I have only glanced at a Peng thread once, and I went blind and grew hair on my palms. No more, thanks.

Peng away. If I don't want to look I don't have to.

I think that the Waffen SS was a mix of true believers and men who just wanted to be in an elite unit fighting for their homeland. When I was a kid (18) the US Marines snagged me because I wanted to be in a tough outfit and they have snazzy uniforms. If I was an 18 year old German kid in 1939 guess where those same desires would have put me. I am not saying the two are morally comparable, but young men make choices based on some pretty shallow grounds and end up being responsible for some serious actions because of those choices. No absolution, just a little food for thought. War fascinates me. That doesn't mean I want anyone to get hurt, or revel in past suffering. The darkest shadows are cast by the brightest light, and celebrating the valor and achievement of arms should not blind one to the tragedy and shame of war. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

The listed penetration for the 6.5mm Mauser round, circa 1905, is 59 inches of pine. That is with a standard, not AP round. Source is an old document from the US Army historical lecture series. I will try to find the stats for the 30-06 with AP ammo.

Icm1947: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do have a extremely pretty 23 year old daughter and don't trust any of you that much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sadly, some of us are old enough where that wouldn't be a problem .

Whew! Lots of different points being made. In no particular order: Username: The M1 carbine is not all that bad. Try shooting a pistol course with one that is not completely worn out and you will quickly see how much of an improvement over a handgun it is. It has roughly the power of a .357 magnum up close, but the bullet sheds velocity quickly. Anyone who thinks it is a "guaranteed miss" is hereby invited to watch my wife send soda cans flying with one at 100 yards. Mikey D: Any small arms round does not have "knock a man over" power. "Stopping Power" has a lot more to do with hydrostatic shock, bullet tumbling or deformation, and of course, shot placement. The terminal effects of the 5.56 round at infantry ranges are well documented. Read Evan Marshall or Dr. Fackler for more info on this subject. LtShotgu: The M-60, or "pig" is dead. Long live the MAG. This excellent Belgian MG has replaced the M-60 in US service. The MAG, oddly enough, is almost a BAR upside down in the inner workings.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Topic: Why are war gamers such an angry bunch ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Easy answer. They are passionate about the subject of history and games. You don't get riled up about something you only have a passing interest in.

Hmm...Do you change history to make a better scenario, or just issue it with a warning that it is good history but poor gameplay? Moon, those pictures are great. I will show them to the old man, but I am sure that his recollection includes mighty few vistas and an awful lot of mud.

That little bit of rubber was hard as a rock on the one I fired. Maybe it is the nasty muzzle blast that makes it seem so bad. Anyhow, on the point of penetration of the .30-06, FMJ or AP ammo is a different beast than civvie soft nose stuff. Depending on the wood involved, three feet at close range seems possible. Before chronographs, they use to shoot bullets into soft pine to get an idea of the power of the round. I will check some of my old loading books.

Welcome aboard. Don't let the "surface" fool you. This game almost beyond description if you are into tactical WWII combat. The graphics improve with the mods available, but it is the depth of gameplay and endless replay value that grab you. Also, the board is terrific. Great people who have something insightful or funny to say, lots to learn from and laugh at. I have purchased copies as gifts. It is a great game, almost an experience, that should be shared. Have fun.

You shoot a jungle carbine? My sympathies to your shoulder.

Thank God someone else uses a sock puppet!

My father was a BAR gunner in the 28th Infantry Division. He loved the weapon because it was reliable and accurate. They used it as a sort of sniper rifle on occasion, aiming low and letting recoil work rounds up the target. The BAR had two rates of fire available. They used the slow rate for this sort of shooting. He used to load the mags entirely with AP when they were in the Huertgen forest, the better to deal with trees. He thinks the BAR was completely outclassed by the MG42. He once got the best of a German MG position with his BAR in a night time firefight, and felt it was a huge accomplishment. Other members of the squad would carry extra BAR magazines. He says that wounded men did not take BARs to the rear, they stayed with the squad, and they were always trying to scrounge up more.

Hey, even a BloodyBucket has to work sometimes! Some books you might find of use: Boesch, Paul. Road to Huertgen: Forest in Hell. Houston: Gulf Publishing, 1962. Colbaugh, Jack. The Bloody Patch: A True Story of the Daring 28th Infantry Division. New York: Vantage Press, 1973. Curry, Cecil B. Follow Me and Die: The Destruction of an American Division in WWII. Briarcliff Manor, NY: Stein and Day, 1984. MacDonald, Charles B. The Battle of the Huertgen Forest. Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company, 1963. Miller, Edward G. A Dark and Bloody Ground: The Hurtgen Forest and the Roer River Dams, 1944-1945. College Station, TX: Texas A&M Press, 1995. Whiting, Charles. The Battle of the Huertgen Forest: The Untold Story of a Disastrous Campaign. New York: Orion Books, 1989. My father was in Easy Company, 2nd Bn., 110th Regt. His favorite Huertgen forest story involves receiving word to expect 20 replacements. Later that evening, three men, one of whom was wounded, were presented to him. When he asked where the rest were, one of the men gave him a dozen or so dogtags, told him that some others had "ran off" and that they were all that was left. This must have been in front of Rafflesbrand. I got the combat interviews given by his platoon commander from the national archives, complete with terrain sketches. Too bad there are no Weasels in CMBO. They played a key role in the battle. One could just use halftracks in place of the Weasels. Good luck with the scenario. Most Huertgen scenarios deal with the 112th, who actually gained and lost ground. The 110th beat themselves bloody in the Rafflesbrand area to no good effect, barely moving at all.

Easy for you to say. My little kid gotta have it right away brain can't take that kind of delayed gratification. If there is a Demo I plan on playing it constantly, and having all available screenshots framed and hung in my bedroom so they are the last thing I see before I go to sleep. I am sure my wife won't object.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Quit your day job and make millions with your home computer in a few hours a day! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Really? Tell me more. How come I haven't heard of this before?

originally posted by Andrew Hedges: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As an example of "good" US troops, I would include the units in the (I think) 28th ID who, when they were cut off by advancing German forces, fell back and set up scratch defensive forces in various villages and greatly delayed the German attack. This despite often not having air cover, not knowing how many troops were attacking, and not having received any orders (indeed, in many cases, HQ thought that these units were wiped out and only learned of their existence when scouts found them). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's two mentions of the Bloody Bucket Division. My Old Man will be tickled. I still maintain that you can't pick a "best" soldier/country/unit during WWII. My opinion would be too clouded by nationalism, plain ignorance of outstanding performances by lesser known contenders, and my love of the USMC.

Interesting picks by JasonC, and I can't argue with them. I would add that the lowlights mentioned reflect on the leadership and not the men involved.

First things first: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd have to add the 29th Infantry Division (Omaha and inland), the 28th Infantry Division (Bulge), <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks, gunnergoz. I will tell my father, a 28th Infantry vet, that you said that, and he will be touched. For the best, I nominate every single soldier in every single nation that fought. God forbid that I ever have to hoe a row that tough. Who knows how I would have fared if asked to carry such a heavy burden? I admire them all. There are black marks aplenty to go around, and each of us has to make judgements about who was right or wrong, but on the level of the individual soldier, I say bless everyone of them. Too bad so many are passing on every day. We are poorer for it.

Of course, for the true US army experience, get lots of artillery and plenty of it. Blast anything that moves, and run like the dickens if you can't get fire support. Seriously, I have started looking at my Shermans as infantry killers instead of tank killers. They last longer and get more done that way.

Jason- Great post. I will show this to some of my friends who have asked this very question on seeing CM and were more perplexed than informed by my rambling answer.

Nearly every Civil War museum I have been to features a musket that has a round in the barrel that met the round coming out. I have no stats to back it up, but it seems that it is reasonable that two tanks could kill each other. I think it happens a lot in CM due to the in-game timing mentioned above.