Sgt. Steiner

It's interesting the information about the eastern front that is now surfacing, especially from the Soviet side. Before getting CMBB, I had no idea the Russians used German vehicles at all, let alone in significant numbers. I'd seen a few photos of German T-34's (and T-70's converted into APC's), but that's about it. The "Unknown War" becomes less so every day.. [ November 17, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Sgt. Steiner ]

There could not have been all that many Tigers in Russian service anyway; there weren't that many of them to begin with. And no doubt the Tiger's mechanical problems would have ensured their abandonment before long. Evidently they used enough Mk IV's and Mk V's for BTS to include them in the game, and so few Mk VI's that BTS did not put captured Tigers in due to the rarity.

Very true. I am also wondering what color those captured vehicles were. Obviously the ones still in German markings (!) are in original paint, but in the other photos it's hard to tell. Dark green, brown? :confused:

Thanks for the link, Engel! I had no idea the Russians used so many German vehicles. I would have thought lack of spares and danger from friendly fire would discourage this practice most of the time. But the Russians apparently also had dedicated factories for reconditioning enemy vehicles; fascinating.. The Panthers appear to have white stars on their turrets; very curious. Can't tell for sure from the b/w photo though. So there must have been at least a few instances of Germans in T-34's encountering Russians in Mk III/IV's. Real-life is stranger than fiction!

Come on now, someone must have some info on this? Bump...

Looking forward to the dusty birds and weathered birds mods too. Well, that's it for me; got to sign off for a while - my stomach is hurting from all this laughing...

Having millions of troops, and thousands of planes and tanks massed along the frontier seems to me highly indicative of someone preparing to launch an offensive. Given all that, I'd say Uncle Joe was indeed up to something, and was surprised only that Adolf was ready before he was..

Gotta love this forum; even has bird grogs on it.. Anyway, Col. Deadmarsh, I have been turning off my speaker power, but I am going to greatly enjoy Oddball's "Birdless" mod all the same..

Licensing is probably the only way we'll ever see any non-WW2 games that use the CM engine. Since BTS is only 4 guys, it will take them years just to finish the games they have already stated are in the works. Hopefully one day they will allow others to make games using their engine..

Looking forward to your "Birdless" mod, Oddball...

Bump..

OK, now I am pretty much familiar with the Germans' use of captured T-34's, etc, but just how widespread was the Soviet use of captured German vehicles? I'm sure they must have gotten their hands on quite a few MK IV's, but just how many useable Panthers? Any grogs out there care to toss out some references? Also, are there any photos of these Russky panzers; would like to see them..

Yeah, not going the "hearts and minds" route cost the Germans dearly. In the early days of Barbarossa, the German troops were greeted with flowers by the Ukrainians. To squander such good-will by letting the Gestapo/SS terrorize after the frontline troops passed by is incomprehensible to me. But, as I read somewhere else, "for the Nazis to have done anything else; they wouldn't have been Nazis"...

Hey Panzermartin, how about a dunkelgrau Tiger I? Pleeeaase? The ones in CMMOS 4.0 look good, but am tired of the waiting..

Now that is another interesting speculation. With a Japanese invasion of Siberia, that would likely have tied up the Siberian troops, and therefore no miraculous 11th hour reinforcements for Moscow. And with no Pearl Harbor, no US involvement? Interesting! Unless of course, Stalin would have been willing to give up large chunks of Siberia in order to stop the Germans. But, to paraphrase Mannchildstein II, all of this is speculation. My own opinion that Moscow's fall would have been the beginning of the end for Stalin, Emry's belief that the Germans could never have held on to Moscow etc etc; it is all speculation, and 60 years-on we will never know. But having a forum to discuss the what-ifs and might-have-beens is still a lot of fun..

Maybe they could make it an option, so that those who like the background noises can leave them in. But I feel your pain; those chirping birds are definitely annoying. I've taken to turning the volume completely off when it gets to be too much..

I have to agree with Kevsharr. In addition to being their main terminus for everything, the loss of Moscow would have been earth-shattering to Russian morale, which was already at rock-bottom. IMO the Soviet system would have folded up like a house of cards after a catastrophe of that magnitude...

These are all interesting ideas, but Battlefront is unlikely to go in that direction. Their next game will be Italy/North Africa/Balkans, followed by early Western Front, i.e. France 1940, etc. And that will probably be followed by revisiting CMBO and CMBB with a new engine. Unless they someday allow a third party to make games with the engine, I don't see it happening. But it's nice to dream though...

As I stated before, IMO, repeat, IMO, I believe the Greek campaign had not been intended on, and it caused a significant delay in the German timetable. And yes, I'm sure there was indeed a delay due to time needed to prepare forward airfields for Barbarossa. But, had there been no Balkans campaign, there would have been more time to prepare for Barbarossa, and therefore a month-earlier launch of the invasion is not improbable. Of course, had Barbarossa taken place in May 1941, no one knows what decisions might have been made, or which way things would've gone. In any case, a German arrival at the gates of Moscow a month earlier would very likely have had a tremendous effect on the outcome.

Still and all, the weather is mainly what defeated the Germans. IMO, the delay to Barbarossa caused by the Balkans campaign is the main culprit. Barbarossa was originally scheduled to begin in April or May of 1941. But having to bail out the bungling Mussolini in Greece (and the unexpected tenacity of the Greek defenders) pushed back the timetable. If the Germans had arrived in front of Moscow one or two months earlier, the war in the east would have had a very different outcome. With Russia out of the picture, the campaign in the west would have had a very different end as well. With no more Russian Front, Hitler could finally have afforded to send Rommel enough tools to finish the job in North Africa, and D-Day likely could never have succeeded with the entire German army (plus millions of Osttruppen) available to man the Atlantic Wall..

Don't see any WW1 games coming along anytime soon. Each side's turn would consist of: Big artillery barrage by Side A against Side B. Side A's troops go "over the top" and are cut to pieces in No Man's Land by MG fire. Side A survivors run back to their trenches. Side B does the same thing. Rinse and repeat. In a word, borringg.. Now, if they did a 1918 only game, with the Ludendorf Offensives, Allied summer offensive, etc that might be doable. Both sides would have to be given the human wave option for it to work at all, though.

It's definitely not just the Ivans that run away from danger. (Spoiler Alert!) While playing the Tiger Tiger! scenario as the Germans, several of my short-barrel Mk III's popped smoke and hauled ass as soon they saw/came under fire from advancing T-34's. On the other hand, my platoon of long-barrel Mk III's showed no such fear and advanced steadily towards the T-34's, firing continuously. After a couple of the T-34's were knocked out, the rest started backing up to get away from the Mk III's. And no, the Tigers in the scenario were on the other side of the map and out of sight, so that couldn't have been why the T-34's ran away. After I thought about it awhile, it all made sense. The T-34 crews were mostly green, and the Mk III crews were veterans. The short-barrel Mk III crews were veterans also, but I can understand why they "advanced to the rear!"

I had been looking forward to the RealColor mod, but due to it's color incompatibility with all the other mods out there (and gargantuan d/l time on my dial-up), I'm going to have to pass on this one. Maybe if it ever ends up at burnadisc I'll be tempted to try it out..

For Gunslinger: Any chance you can send your mod to Burnadisc.com? On my 45k dial-up this will take an eternity. I would be more than happy to buy it from them on a CD. If not, then I guess I'll have to live without it..

Yep, those AK-47's are a bit post-warish, but hey, they'd have used 'em if they'd had 'em, right?