Priest

Just trying to prove a point people. A WWII simulation on a computer in 2001 will never be a "realistic" WWII experience no matter how hard anyone tries. In fact uless you were there you cannot have a realistic experience. Steve and Charles (and many others) have done a wonderful job bridging the gap as much as possible. And while I am sure all of us have preferences, making the claim that one is more realistic or better than another is just plain dumb. It is an opinion , Louie you like playing the Ironman rules which is fine, but do not tell me it is more realistic because I can make a valid arguement that it is not. I personally like to trust that Steve and Charles knew what they were doing and I want to use their creation (CMBO) as it was intended in all of it's glory. Seems like a waste not to. [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

THE FINAL REVISION! Yes folks after long hard hours of thought we have come up with a way that allows CMBO to excel beyond what anybody thought possible. We like to call it.... THE BEST WAY!!!! Disclaimer: We are actually not responsible for this set of rules but we are now officially backing their validity. THE BEST WAY V1.0 READ CMBO INSTRUCTION MANUEL PLAY ENJOY

JUST RELEASED!!!!! That is right you realistic loving animals here is another variation on CMBO that we here at PriestCO. know you will all love. Disclaimer: No previous rule sets are needed for this version of the rules. In fact CMBO is not needed. SUPER ULTRA NO HOLDS BARRED REALISM RULES V3.0 Get some friends together and you opponent does the same. Meet somewhere in France, Belgium, or Germany and try to shoot each other. Enjoy!

UPDATE!!!!!! That is right folks already we have had an update of the Realism Rules V1.0 that is so ahead of it's time we are calling it.... ULTRA REALISM RULES V2.0!!!! Disclaimer: All "Ironman" and "Realism Rules V1.0" are in effect. First off you need to decide where you are going to battle (it must be a real place in Europe because hey this is ULTRA REALISTIC!!) and then use GPS technology to assess the "lay of the land". Then learn high level programming and develop a program that can take the GPS data and translate it into CMBO code (You will need Charles for this and thus delay CMBB but hey this is for "realism"). After the map is generated you and your opponent travel to the actual site. And while a laptop is gamey a tower and monitor is just downright stupid and even CMBO has limitations (feh! Computers on a WWII battlefield). Then using brightly colored chalk (red and green usually) use dash marks to layout your setup zones (They did that in WWII right?) After setting up you must run to each position and plot orders from there so you can really see what the troops in the game are seeing. Make sure to bring lots of red and black rope for CnC resolution not to mention hundreds of meters of gold, light red, blue, green, and red/black combo rope (varying ratios of red/black) so that you can determine various things from the game in real life. If any civilians are around you must ask them to leave and anything in the area placed or made since 1944-45 must be removed. Unless you own a Tiger or Sherman no tanks can be used and I am sure not many people have acess to artillery battaries. Make sure you have large cardboard discs with the countries flags on them to act as unit markers also (they always forget that!!!). Also make sure you buy a uniform a rifle and wear a 40 lbs pack to keep with the whole realism aspect. That should do it enjoy. Other than the fact you cannot use tanks, heavy weapons, artillery, and air support it sure is realistic. Oh yeah and it is ludicrous also!

Realism Rules V1.0 Disclaimer: These rules are considered to used in conjunction to the "Ironman" rules already discussed on this forum. I claim no creative influence on these rules and as such please contact the proper people for clarification of such rules. Realism Rules 1.) Install blinders on the outer edges of you monitor so that only the middle 1/3 of the screen is visible. (you can buy pre-made blinders from PriestCo. for just $100 dollars each - Very expensive but hey realism is worth it!) 2.) Each turn you receive close your eyes and drag the mouse over the battlefield and then hit "TAB". Then hit the "1" key and open your eyes and you should right behind a unit. If you do this wrong and see portions of the map not in LOS then contact your opponent and surrender due to the fact that you just cheated! 3.) Using a dry erase marker and a protractor you can rotate the screen once locked onto a unit 45 degrees to the left or the right. 4.) When ambushing you must get under your desk and wait for your girlfriend/roommate/ wife/child/pet to come by and then jump and and yell bang before you can hit the GO! button. If you live alone then it will be a long wait indeed. 5.) If you do not have a two story house then you may not go into two story buildings because the "feel" is all wrong. 6.) You may not use the CMBO interface to interact and give orders to any unit except the CO that you represent. You can however try to contact the troops in the game with a radio and/or yelling at your screen. 7.) Instead of emailing the files to one another you must open the file with notepad and transcribe by hand onto paper each character and then find a courier service that still uses Jeeps/Kubelwagens (cheaters will try to use Volkswagen Bugs no doubt) and that can deliver the turn to your opponent who must buy a light pen to transcribe the file back onto notepad because using a keyboard to type is easily as gamey as using level 3 and 4 viewing! 8.) If your unit CO is near an explosion you must take your hands and violently clap them over your ears until they bleed. 9.) For every soldier that dies you must write a letter of condolence. 10.) Finally if your CO gets killed in the game you must shoot yourself and hope the endgame result is that you lived and were only wounded in battle. Thank you for previewing Realism Rules V1.0 [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Priest ] [ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

I had a 105mm spotting round hit a German Flak truck between two 2-story heavy buildings in a city. Talk about threading the needle!

And that is where the rub is you see. This is just a personal opinion so please refrain from attacking it as if it was a fact, but small scenarios (300pts) bore the hell out of me. I personally enjoy integrating multiple forces and types into a cohesive team and executing an operation. Now while this is possible on the 300pt level it is much more limited. Also I tried it out vs. the AI and found it not to be much of a challenge, not that the AI was not much of a challenge, but that playing that way did not hinder nor help my gameplay. All it did was slow me down. You see the game was made to support a wide variety of scenarios of many different sizes. The interface acts as a tool to be used to accomplish goals while trying to maintain a simulation experience. Your arguement is hinged on a more "realistic" experience but I must say that I doubt it is really so. On top of the many reasons already pointed out, you cannot simulate even typical armor support. In fact a great majority of actions were undertaken by company level formations supported with artillery and heavy weapons teams that are impossible to simulate with the "ironman" rules. Actually the "ironman" rules have more in common with that game "COMMANDOS" than CMBO. I can see the allure of such a set of rules but too much of the game is lost. Too many tactical options are not possible. In the end this system seems like it would handicap not promote better more realistic play. A new player needs to see the map and experiment while an advanced player will have little or no difficulty with the rules and see them as a nuisance (of course barring supporters of course). To each his own but I would be careful what claims you make!

So you do use other levels Louie! While I am sure a lot of work has gone into the "ironman" rules, there is nothing ironman to it. First off you are cheating the game (not cheating in the game but cheating the game) and the work of it's designers by not using the interface as intended. I am sure Steve and Charles thought of something similiar and tried it, afterwards they rejected the idea and used what we have today. CMBO with it's full interface will never have an advantage over actually being there with trained soldiers. Maybe you do not get to move every unit but an intelligent trained officer does and much more often puts input in if needed. The "ironman" rules simply put a hinderance on the player that was not intended and adds nothing. Also I would beg to argue that it does not really take more skill but just more time (maybe ironman is appropriate) to play the game that way. I doubt any of my tactics would be hurt by doing this. As far as not scrolling around and not clicking on enemy troops, well why not. You are devoid of maps and a radio with officers telling you what is happening. BTW does the game actually get harder because the graphics tell me more than any info I get for clicking on a unit. I see an enemy and it looks like a TIGER then I treat it as such even though when I click on it I see "TIGER?". It may end up being a Panzer IV but when it does my graphic will change and then I will know, so what is the big deal? I know somebody that played a match against someone using the "ironman rules and while it appeared the opponent was using the "ironman" approach the circumstances did not call for my friend to do so. If I recall correctly the match ended in a cease fire but the difference was that my friend (with more units mind you) took 5-10 minutes to plot moves (Meeting engagement so both sides had to move) while his opponent took 40-50 minutes! Hmmmm seems to me BTS added the so-called "gamey" interface to ease the burden of the player, or in the above case his bored opponent.

If you say so. Of course whichever military your little guys fight in needs to get some intel, and some pre-battle planning (sometimes days worth) and training. Some pre battle photographs would be nice. How about scouting for possibly months if on defense? Morning Ariel recon photos just taken hours before the attack. Play a lot of MEs do we?

Question still remains, how does being at levelone keep you from looking over the map? So what you are behind a hill, you can still zoom around the map at *super* speeds. The Ironman rules might be fun and they might be interesting to fool around with but in the end I must say that hindering yourself intentionally when you are already hindered sooo much when compared to a real WWII CO seems trivial. If the Ironman rules are to prevent you from "knowing the lay of the land" then they fail miserably because forcing the opponent to look at the land more closely does not seem to help. [ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

DOH! [ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

Geez tell a guy his sound mods are the greatest (they are superb) and he is you friend forever. Thanks for the backup!

Screw VT and HE assaults!!! I plan to use the ever infamous SWARM OF JEEP insults. BEWARE!!! BEWARE!!!! oh and because it now seems appropriate..... HI MOM! Seems like the question has been answered the insults hurled and all that is left is to continue to spout drivel until Matt arrives.

Aaaaaaah! The Ironman rules. I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Well personally I tend to play mostly in level 3 view. No tactical reason I just think the game looks best there. So I tend to watch movies there and because I use it so much have become adept at plotting orders in level 3 also. Though I still use the interface as much as possible also so all camera angles are fair game. Because you see it is a better not worse simulation that way. The interface allows the commander on the battlefield to make up for the lack of "feel" for the battle. Rommel himself said that most of the time he ran on "feel" and instinct and that is why he was always at the front. In CMBO we cannot be at the front. There is no front only a monitor screen. And really what is Level 6-whatever really good for, I only use it to track planes. If I was on the real battlefield I could just look up but that is not possible in CMBO. Oh and Ironman, uhm what is to prevent you from still looking around the map to your hearts content. Not only that but if I look around the map at level 2 I will be much better off than at level 4 because the contours of the land will be much more prevalent. In the end you slow games and hinder your abilities with these limitations because they were never intended in the first place.

thnx! Very informative!

Best way to learn this is play PBEM and then as you get good at it, the process becomes second nature and you can plot movement and see strategy fast enough to play TCP/IP and maintain a good speedy game clip.

Let me start off by saying that I have not read all 5 pages of this thread, but I have been involved in just about every "gameyness" thread from the old days. First off this whole special rules for games and so on and so forth is really getting out of hand. Next the term "gamey" is being thrown around way too much. Heck even though I am constantly involved in three to four games (PBEM or TCP/IP) at all times I still have yet to see these unbeatable FLAK trucks (I just keep killing them!). Personally I think there is nothing wrong with "gamey" because it has yet to produce anything that even mildly scares me. Send your crew and jeep rushes and I will send you dead pixels and crushed jeeps. But more to the core of the problem, buying transports for guns is not a needed feature. Personally if I have a "sweet" spot near or in my startup zone then I either setup or walk my guns there. Did trucks and HTs transport me there? Probably and abstracted them by my gun forces just being there. Now what if I want to move those guns or maybe use them in ways other than overwatch fire, well then I will need transports to stay with (see on map) the guns so I will purchase their presence (spend more for the MG equipped HTs or less for the mundane trucks). Here is an interesting question (and one that may have already been asked), how did your infantry and heavy weapons teams get there? Do you buy a transport for each of them? Where do we draw the line people? Personally if I feel that my "spots" for my guns are within my "walking" range for the crew then I will self deploy, but if I want options then I will include transport. Now I am not going to say this is sour grapes or not (I do not care) but if it really matters then play another game with either the "rule" for transport in place or not but then you both can be on "equal" footing and see what happens. Lastly the Stuh was semi-rare and I cannot remember the Marder III production numbers but I believe most served on the eastern front with the majority seen on the west during the Bulge and the last days of the war. In 1944 the initial Firefly production led to one Firefly per armor troop. Hope that settles that. Later

You try and you try...oh it has already been said

I am assuming that the Hummel mounted the (near) standard 150mm artillery howitzer hence the gun has the intermediate range and the propensity of firing at a high or flat trajectory at a lower velocity than a traditional "gun". Picking a fight with Matt (with capitals even) may not be the best idea so let it be. Just helpful advice.

CRAP! SMILEY's (Who used to have a sig that went something like "smiley's free zone" or somefink like that)

Snake Eyes I forgot about that one. You are correct that guns can limit space and even act as the flank guard are mighty handy indeed. I not sure which German high commander said this (pretty sure it was Guderian) "Panzer Armies need space!" You can use towed guns to take this needed space away! [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

It is a very careful art to be able to use towed guns on the offensive. There are basically two ways to do this. 1.) find a sweet spot on setup and use them as overwatch fire from rear areas. 2.) Use transport to manuever the guns behind wood outcroppings that block LOS with the enemy. Then disembark the units and have them march across the wooded area. Now the skill part, you have to estimate when they will become in visual contact with forces on the other side and set your end waypoint there with an ajoined hide command. Usually any enemy force will not have time to notice the gun as it ducks just as it comes into view. Even if they see it they can rarely fire at it and usually just get a "marker" at best. Then when you are ready unhide the crew and go to work. I just did tactic #2 with two 105mm Howitzers and someone just did it to me with the big German Infantry gun! Hope this helps

Oh and to attract Matthew I will sing a song! MPHPHHPPHHHH! (clears throat) HI MOM! HI MOM! HI MOM! LOCKED THREAD! HI MOM! HI MOM! HI MOM! Though the forum is flooded Keep those HIGH MOMS! roll'in LOCKED THREAD! Trolls, viruses, and PENG Hellbent forever Wishing CMBB was by my side All the things I am missing Family, work, and resting Are waiting at the end of the game (unless I start another one!) Write'em down Lock'em up Write'em down Lock'em up Locked Thread Lock'em Up Write'em down Lock'em Up Write'em down Locked Thread (sung to the tune of RAWHIDE) DISCLAIMER: ANY PENG REFERENCE WAS MADE IN JEST AND IS TO BE TAKEN AS SUCH. IT IS IN NO WAY A REFERENCE TO ANY ONE PENG ASSOCIATE BUT THE CHAOS AS A WHOLE. IT WAS ONLY MENTIONED DUE TO IT'S HISTORY AS A RECOGNIZABLE PART OF THIS FORUM. THANK YOU. [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Priest ] [ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Priest ]

Funny, I am American and I have always been accused of having a superiority complex (just as annoying to others from what I gather)

Hey Night, Lorak, and Germanboy what is up? Anyways I was just passing by when I noticed that we have a new person on the board that asked a question that I wanted cleared up. Heaven's to Betsy and it sure did get cleared up. Now shootdodge (which is slang describing a tactic in most FPS games) I have visited the forums that you seem to come from. They all tend to be machismo sessions. Unluckly you will not find that here. Here you will find offers for games to settle differences and for the most part be sorry afterwards. Also let me forwarn you that not only will the moderators ban you (forever by you IP if needed) but also that threats concerning the computers of forum members is really (and I mean really) stupid. Hmm lets see on this post already how many professional "computer" people. Well I count two right off the bat. Seems like bad odds to me. Here is an idea. Start over now and be civil or be banned. You will be forgotten within minutes. It is sad that one such as yourself thinks that you are cool and that you are "debating" with the other "stupid" forum members when it is you who is acting (but may not be) an idiot and it is you who started this all. John S was helping out and admitting that it was a guess and if you and yours are sooo computer literate then why did it take you three months to type "Howitzer/Gun differences" in any of the major search engines? I just did and guess what I found my answer. Now how about we listen to some rock'in tunes as we wait for baldy. We may get the famous BAN/LOCK THREAD COMBO that we rarely see these day. Oh yeah HI MOM! We have handled idiots before you will be no different!