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From the same site.. "Main Armament of the Panther tank. There was also a 75 mm L.70 tank destroyer based on a standard Sd.Kfz. 251 light halftrack, which had the weapon mounted across the top of the crew compartment. " This modeler should read the warnings about proper ventilation when using solvents..

In WWI 1 out of 20 fatalitys was a civilian. In WWII, it was 2 out of 3. But not many of those were in the battlefields CM represents.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: I found this page with some info. Beware of the gun info on the site, some of it appears to be not quite correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From the website: "15 cm Wire Guided Missile H.C. (Munroe) 206 mm The Rotkäppchen was a winged bomb with the usual 15 cm Igr. 39 Hl/A artillery shell H.C. warhead, fired from a sled. Like its modern counterparts, this wire guided device had a joystick for remote control. The weapon was introduced in 1945, and it was apparently used on the Eastern Front." Is this guy for real? What about a rocket-powered sled dog with an explosive warhead on his collar like a St Bernhard? Lewis

The 150mm and 128mm shells dont appear to be yellow. They seem to be a light green color. The long 88mm does appear to be very light colored though. If the three to the left of the 128mm AP round are 88 longs, they dont appear to be the same height. Perhaps they are a mix of Flak 41 and KWK 43 rounds. The two 88 L56 rounds appear to be black and yellow also. Lewis Anyone else have pics of german projectiles?

Heres another lineup of ammo. Unfortunately its in B&W and not that clear. Its from the panzermuseum Munster website. Anyone translate German? Spreng- u. Panzergranatpatronen sowie Geschosse und Treibladungskartuschen, wie sie aus den Waffen der Panzer, Panzerjäger und Pz.-Haubitzen im Kaliber 5,0-15 cm zur Bekämpfung von Zielen aller Art bis 1945 eingesetzt wurden. In Bildmitte 12,8 cm Panzer- u. Sprenggranate mit Treibladungskartusche des "Jagdtiger". Links daneben 8,8 cm Granatpatronen der Pz.Kampfwagen Vl "Tiger I" und II "Königstiger". I would guess that the smallest ammo is a 50mm L60 AP40 dart ammo. The largest looks like a Brummbar 150mm two part round. The other two part round looks like the 128mm JagdTiger showing both types of projectiles for this weapon. [ 05-28-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

http://www.feldgrau.com/weaprod.html Heres a good stats page showing production numbers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: I wasn't aware that the germans were coloring their ammo according to an american TechnicalManual but seriously, the picture username posted: would suggest that the yellow projectile in your interesting ammo picture is not ordinary/regular HE but a special fused anti-aircraft ammo variant (note the yellow is shown only on the 88 L/56 ammo which is practically 8,8cm FlaK ammo)...or?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> TM E9-369A, German 88-mm Antiaircraft Gun Materiel, 29 June 43 and TM E9-803, Could it also be that this US document he sites is from before the end of the war? Thats some hot intel you got there mat_ridge...

Looks like the 88L71 PAK and KWK could not fire the Flak 41 long 88.. "Comparison of characteristics between the 88mm Flak 41 and the 88mm KwK 36 quickly reveals the difficulties created by mounting the longer gun in a turret designed for the shorter gun. Even if a gun mount could have been designed to allow the physical installation of the longer Flak 41, there remained the overwhelming problems of balancing the gun, protecting the very long recoil cylinders, traversing the resulting imbalanced turret, and loading the much longer rounds (1200mm versus 931mm). Comparison of the 88mm guns Name KwK 36 Flak 41 KwK 43 Gun Length (mm) 4930 6548 6298 Length in calibres 56 74 71 Round Length (mm) Spgr.Patr. (HE) 931 1200 1167 Pzgr.Patr.39 (AT) 873 1158 1125 Cartridge case (mm) 570 85 822 Also, there was the sensitive question, for Krupp, of mounting an arch rival's gun (the Flak 41 was designed by Rheinmetall) in their turret. Anyway, on 5 February 1943, Krupp was awarded the contract for the development of the 88mm KwK 43 L/71, a new gun specifically designed to the successor of the Tiger I. The only similarity between this gun designed by Krupp and the Rheinmetall Flak 41 was that the same penetration values were achieved when the same shell was fired with the same initial muzzle velocity. All other characteristics of the two guns were different. Following the main specification to achieve equivalent armor penetration, Krupp completely redesigned the gun for mounting in a tank turret. As compared to the Flak 41 L/74, the KwK 43 L/71 was shorter with different rifling and had a muzzle brake to retard recoil. In addition it had shorter, fatter recoil cylinders to fit inside a turret, had an air blast system fitted to evacuate fumes from the gun directly after firing and chambered a shorter (but fatter) cartridge case for easier loading inside a turret." This is from.. http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm While the first two trial guns,V1 and V2 for the 88mm KwK 43 were monoblock, the third trial gun, V3, had already been fabricated following the sectional monoblock design. The multiple piece barrel of the sectional monoblock design improved the life of the gun and simplified manufacturing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42: What the hell are those rounds on the left? Are they 50mm and 37mm?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would guess as follows (left to right): 1. 37mm PAK 2. 50 mm APCR maybe L42 3. 50mm L60 Shell HE or other (smoke, etc) 4. 75mm L24 Shell (HE, HEAT, smoke) 5. 75mm L43 and L48 (but not PAK40 L46) Shell, etc 6. Panther 75mmL70 AP39/42 7. Flak 88mmL56 shell type. Note: The Tiger used an electrical firing mechanism and this round might not be suitable in a Tiger I but rather just in Flak weapons. 8. 88L71 Shell type Of all the rounds, I would say the Panther AP is the most clearly identifiable. The arrow head round is most likely a AP40 50mm L42 (which were known to jam in the gun after firing and had to be pushed out (the cartridge). The payload on the 75mm L24 and L43/48 shells is very comparable to the 88s and dwarfs the 50mm. Perhaps the german 75mm tank guns had a bigger payload than the US much-vaunted sherman 75mm? Lewis Heres my flak-happy friend Gunter showing us his yellow anti-aircraft shell. [ 05-27-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

Are you talking about rotating?

That was some of the funniest s**t I have read in a while. Wish I could send it to Mr. Durst. Or I wish he could read so I could send it to him. Or, alternatively, I wish I could could just get 15 minutes to methodically beat the living snot out of eminem or whatever that brain damaged white-trash detroit-pukes name is. Does anyone get the sense that I am a bitterly aging punk? Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BsChoy: I don't see anybody recognizing that a charge of the same size and weight will be faster out of a longer barrel than an identical round from a barrel of shorter length. Same rules apply for a standard rifle barrel...the more barrel you have the faster your round will fly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This isnt true. The charge must match the barrel length. A good example is "The queens gun" story. Some queen wanted a long barreled pistol under the same assumption as you are making. But when they fired it (with a normal pistol cartridge), its range was shorter than a normal pistol. The reality is that friction takes over once the charge ceases to accelerate the round. If the round reaches a point in the barrel where it just maintains a velocity, thats where you should probably cut off the barrel. So the real issue is acceleration. Thats the point of a gun. To accelerate a projectile to a velocity. I have read of a worn out hetzer that lopped off two lengths (to make a field modified L46 out of a L48!) because its grooves were shot at the end of the barrel. It was loosing velocity because of its longer barrel. Since we are usually talking about rifled weapons (that impart spin), its very important that this friction be avoided. I would guess a smoothbore would be more forgiving. When a rifled weapon is fired there is a small accel of the projectile because of the initial expansion of propellant. The projectile will then "dig" into the rifle grooves with its band and "stall". This generates the real spike of pressure in a gun. The pressure then drives the projectile down the barrel and increases the area in the barrel behind the projectile. This decreases the pressure continuosly till the projectile finally leaves the barrel. An interesting fact is that the shell is spinning at a fantastic (to me) rate. Something like 20-30,000 RPMs. About 5-10 percent of the energy is put into spinning the shell and most of the rest is put into accelerating the projectile to its muzzle velocity (plus friction, etc). Supposedly the germans used proggressive rifling in 88s but I havent read too much about it. It might actually wear too quick but it would have some interesting pressure effects. So having extra powder doesnt hurt (unless the gun blows up or wears out too quickly), having too little is bad also. Hope this makes sense. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matthew_Ridgeway: For someone who in the past has argued quite vehemently (or should I say obtusely) the subtleties of German Ordnance you sure are demonstrating a lack of knowledge here. The paint scheme on the projectiles is a dead give away as to what type of round the thing is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was just going to ignore your BS but since this is (was) a good exchange of info; I will say that german 75mm ammo was mostly either black (AP) or green (HE, HEAT and smoke). How thats a dead giveaway remains to be explained by you. The various olive greens had different lettering to ID what the shell was (if it wasnt HE sprg). So a green shell with black lettering "HL/B" is a hollow charge shell. If it had white "Nb" its a nebel smoke shell. Similarly, the black AP shells could have red bands (Pznr39) or a white "W" for tungsten (AP40). So the real dead giveaways are usually in the lettering (but the pic does not show that unfortunately). Another dead giveaway is the silver fuze on the front of the shells. It signifys non-AP. Its a shell full of something (and so are you). The shells in the pic show various shades of color that can be interpreted in several ways. The obviously different one is the yellow on the 88mm shell. So if you want to share with the group what kind of shell it is then why dont you? Why focus on me? I dont really care for your insipid rolling eyes snipe so screw off if you cant be a man. Lewis

Actually, the two on the right (the 88L71 and 88 L56) seem to have slightly different shapes to the shells. I dont know if they are both HE but they dont appear to be AP.

The picture shows a mix of AP and HE rounds I believe. The panther round is an AP. There are two 75mm HE rounds, one for a L24 and one for a L43/L48 (both guns fired the same exact ammo). These are the fourth and fifth rounds from the left. The projectiles are the same but the casing is obviously different. The panther may or may not have used a similar projectile on its longer case also. This would certainly simplify production. The AP weights of the L43/49/70 are very similar and I would assume that they shared an AP round also. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SenorBeef: EDIT: Btw, Lewis, I think the system already does work like that, with higher quality units being more 'flexible'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that it doesnt. Lets say you give a move order that extends beyond a turn so that there is a "leftover". The distance this old waypoint can be moved (edited) seems about the same for all units. It isnt a circle by the way but an ellipse of sorts. Perhaps based upon the direction that the unit is traveling. Dont take my word on it. Try it yourself. Believe me, if you want to win; give plenty of orders. It doesnt cost anything to cancel and if it ends up being needed then theres no delay. Never give one move order but one every few meters. A long move order that ends far away can only be edited so far. Be gamey like me and use this method. I agree that units within close command control and given "short" orders should benefit as you say. Giving a unit orders to destinations beyond both the HQ and units LOS should be penalized. Experience effects this as always. Lewis [ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

Not a bad idea. I think that BTS has said that sov armor platoons will be limited like this. I think that canceling orders should also have some extra delay added to " add-ons". Example: I give incredibly detailed moves in the hope that no enemy opens up. These extra orders will allow me to be all set for a breakthrough without delay. Unfortunately, An enemy HMG opens up and I cancel some moves in the open. If I then give these same units a new move type order, there is an additional time penalty added. There is a chance that the units that get canceled are pinned also. Withdraw is the same as usual. This would channel the players actions into more realistic behaviour without forcing him to be a robot. There should also be a maximum distance that a move order can be drag-editted (where you do little mods to the move waypoints). This should be based on troops quality etc. I have never read what this simulates in the game from anyone from BTS. I think it should still be in the game but maybe expanded upon. To me, its the troops ability to respond AS A UNIT to changing circumstances. It seems to be a constant now for all units no matter what the quality, circumstances, etc. Lewis

Figures. I post my first ever offering of a scenario and the server crashes. Still looking for playtesters.

Perhaps there should be a registered vehicle use tracking system. This would keep track of all games and vehicles used in games by all players. If someone went over 100 pumas, then he is disqualified from ever purchasing another puma ever again. Another option is "I challenge you to a germ-US game of XX division vs YY division". Only the vehicles actually used by those divisions can be picked. Its a little more historical based and restricted. But I spend all my points on hetzers and smg units so what do I care? Lewis

Seen my new sig? I am insulted that you took off your sig Steve.. [ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

I havent read through all the posts here (cause they are long and whiney) but am going to use this opportunity to reiterate my great ideas. Great idea 1 Rarity as a cost multiplier. Purchasing the first of a type of rare vehicle/gun is reflected in the initial purchase cost (ie puma costs you (i dunno) 150 pts). The next puma costs you 250 pts. (But see great idea number 2). Great idea number 2 You can define platoon types. So instead of just buying a rare vehicle to use in a solitary role; you buy into a platoon type. Example: declare a armored recon platoon as your type. Normal puma costs are slightly lower but you must fill out the platoon type with proper vehicles. Want to put a panther (normal cost (i dunno) 200 points?) in the recon platoon?, well he costs 250 points in this unorthodox role. Want to go cheap on the platoon roster? Buy kubelwagons to make up the minimum number of vehicles (lets say six). If the game you are playing is a 1500 point quickie, these rare vehicles/platoons won't show up as much me thinks. Great idea numero 3 Vehicle platoons should have some kind of global "command control" that is reflected in the state of the platoon. This control should restrict movement/orders somehow based on losses and especially command vehicle state. This will certainly offset the omni-aware player and his telepathic communications amongst his troops. Perhaps BTS is doing something along these lines for the russian tank platoons. I envision the following during the orders phase: Click on a platoon leader vehicle. All of the vehicles under his command "light up". If they are in C&C, then he can give them a number of orders (from a "command total" that is determined by the platoon leaders morale, suppression, radio contact, losses in the platoon, distance from leader, etc). The ones completely out of C&C can only be given "follow me" (where the TACAI decides his moves), or defend , where he stays put (the vehicles can always be given WITHDRAW commands also to reflect individual vehicle control. This would be just like the infantry withdraw command). Gone are the days of the infinite number of orders given to individual vehicles (one of my gamiest favorites is the "back and forth" for vehicles. This way, I am only seconds away from escaping or advancing). Gone also is the "jumping around" your command, constantly refining orders for vehicles and men that have no way of coordinating in reality. You choose a platoon and direct it. Thats it. I dont want to hear the whining from the people here that enjoy their unrealistic playtime. Also, the "Command Total" is dynamic! So you tell a jeep to run itself up a road and its proposed movement goes by a hidden german squads ambush (which you dont get to see, you are only aware that your "dynamically changing Command Total" has been whittled down excessively and that the last unit you moved (the jeep) is in some sort of danger). This faux paus normally costs you 2.5 times the Command Total points (and locks this move down so it cant be taken back). Luckily, he is a jeep from a recon platoon and this decreases the "hit" to only 1.8 times normal Command Total points (they are used to this stuff). So a jeep aint just a jeep anymore boys and gurls. The recon platoon leader has to make a decision to either reinforce this mistake (IF he has any "Command points" left!), or to just take the loss. What will he do? WHAT WILL HE DO???? OK. So its all options for the real wargamers then.. I can hear the whiney weenies already.. But I also hear the mechanical whirrings of other designer-wannabees brains and would like to hear from them. Steve is allowed to throw a hissy fit as always.. Lewis [ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: Username ]

IF the germans could get them and IF they had enough ammo, THEN they would probably use them as light flak guns. I cant see them getting them till battles like the BULGE. But the germans did fear them and also the russian 14.5mm HMG (the russian 12.7 was like a 'kurtz' 50 cal if you ask me). The russian 14.5mm WAS the antitank rifle round and would make halftracks/armored cars into swiss cheese. I am sure the germans captured alot of weapons after market garden but couldnt get the ammo needed. They didnt have time to get an ammo factory setup in the remaining months of the war. Lewis

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franko: He doesn't appear to have the best spelling. What should I do? Franko <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Call the spelling police. If I had nickel for every time a dope that sent me a threat/nasty email, Id be having a pile of money to move around. Ive even had overt threats here in the forum (which of course are taken to be jokes by the immoderators). So funnyman isnt funny and this isnt worth yakking about. Wheres Madmatt (Madlock) when you need him? Lewis

whats it worth to you?

Theres also a glide option in the works. The mortor shell springs out wings at the top of its flight. It then becomes a glide bomb extending its range. It would have the laser designator also. This would be great for light forces that have to get big bang for the weight.