Pak40

This would only fall true where the terrain is completely flat and featureless AND if it were easy to hit a target over 2000 meters away. It's rarely practical to engage tanks over 2000 or 3000 meters away, especially early or mid war. And although much of Russia's terrain is typically depicted as "featureless steppes" and grassland, there's almost always slight undulations in topography that makes it possible for manuver. Let's not forget that there is a lot of terrain on the Eastern Front that is not "featureless steppes". If you're really worried about manuvering on the Eastern Front then don't even bother with CC3. The maps are only slightly larger than CC2 which means maximum engagements will be about 400-500 meters typically. The steppe maps are basically pointless to play since there really no way to tactically manuver. However, some of the urban and hilly maps are quite nice. The game as a hole is very disapointing following CC2, a legendary realtime wargame. CC3's campaign and operation system is horrible and the gameplay itself is lopsided in favor of armor - don't even bother spending points on infantry, they just get cut down even if in a building.

The VL flags already create a "Target Area" as well as a "defense zone". The VLs tell the attacker where he needs to attack and tells the defender where he needs to defend. The problem with attack vectors is that it's too much like scripting. The attacker AI would use the attack vectors every time you re-played the scenario, making the scenario predictable. The first time that the scenario is played would be great but the second time would be almost the same. Maybe there's a way to make it use random attack vectors.

bump

OK. I ran a little test scenario myself. The Armored Car in question is the Russian BA64. I had the AC target the ground until his ammo was depleted, then I moved the car over to the VL which remained neutral even after the end of the turn. The nearest enemy was 200-300 meters away. Next time I will run the test with other armored cars to see if they have the same problem.

interesting screen shots. All I know is that the case that I saw was a Russian armored car, I forget the model but it was one of those real small cars with a two man crew and one machinegun. Im absolutly positive that there wasn't an enemy anywhere near the VL at any point during the battle.

But that unit is no longer able to control the VL. For it to do so it must have the means in which to deny the enemy (whether 2 meters or 2 miles away) from contesting that control. A vehicle without ammo no longer has the means to do so. QB]</font>

In a recent QB I had an armored car that had expended all of it's ammo try to hold a VL. The VL remained neutral. There was not a single enemy unit that came within 300 meters of the VL the entire game. What's even worse is that if the armored car were knocked out or abandoned I could have used the crew to hold the VL. So in effect, a crew can't hold a VL while in an ammoless vehicle but once they get out of the vehicle they can. Seems kind of absurd.

Man, you've been on this board for how many years and didn't know the answer to that?

Quenaelin, What you fail to realize is that CM is taking into account the fact that camouflage is being used. A well camouflagued gun will never really be seen. The only thing that your tanks would see is muzzle flash and a puff of smoke coming from the gun when it fires, everything else looks like trees and brush. Therefore, when your tanks were firing at the gun, the gun took cover. When a unit takes cover it is harder to see. When your tanks couldn't see the target anymore, they stopped firing. The simple solution to this is to fire at the suspected area, i.e. target the ground.

"You're so distant. How come we never talk anymore?"

I find it odd that you're not playing CMBB because of reasons YOU can control: 1. get a new computer with more ram and a better video card. All I have is a 1.5 P4 with a 64meg video card and the game runs beautifully. This type of machine should cost you $400 at the most. 2. Try playing meeting engagements or maps with less obstructions. 3. I love playing as the Americans but I very much appreciate all of the nationality choices in CMBB. Just get over the fact that this is the East Front. BFC isn't releasing the code to the public, so there won't be any force modding...ever!

Thanks Moon, I agree with CMBB's phyical fitness modeling. I generally havn't had a problem with it in CMBB simply because I always took my time on the attack in CMBO. It was just a habit I developed because it made sense to move forward slowly or in leaps and bounds; this is necessary to avoid ambushes. However, I think there might be one small anomalee in CMBB. It may be a bug: There have been a couple of instances where a FO (wire) was ordered to run or sneak. The unit exhausted EXTREMELY quick(like 10-20 seconds). I don't have a problem with it tiring quickly because I understand that they are carrying a spool of wire. However, it did seem a bit too quick. But the real problem that I had was that the unit took an unreal amount of time to recover from being exhausted. In one case I didn't move the FO for about 25 turns until it finally upgraded to 'tired'. The game was over by that point. As far as I know the unit was fit and a Veteran. I just have a hard time believing that any unit can't recover from exhaustion after 5-7 minutes of rest.

Quenaelin, Moon answered the "waypoints" question before I could, but I'd like to elaborate and enforce the fact that adding pause time to each waypoint is more realistic: In the two examples below, a platoon commander is ordering a squad to occupy a house on top of a hill. However, example #1 is a straight march while example #2 is a more non-direct approach using cover. 1. Platoon HQ: "Sarge, take you men straight up that hill and occupy that house as fast as possible" Sarge: "Yes Sir" Total time for orders: about 8 seconds Number of Waypoints: 1 Run waypoint 2. Platoon HQ: "Sarge, I need you to take that building on top of that hill. Move your men quietly along that treeline, don't let the enemy know you're coming. Once you get to the end of the treeline, you'll have to use that small ravine as cover while you close the distance to the wall surrounding the house. Once your men reach that wall, assault the house as quickly as possible. Sarge: "Wait, I don't see the ravine you're talking about" Platoon HQ:"It's just to the left of the end of the treeline." Sarge: "OK, I see it" Total Time for Orders: about 25-30 seconds Number of Waypoints: 2-3 Walk waypoints in the woods, 2 Walk wayoints in the ravine, 1 Run waypoint from the wall to the house. Example #2 shows the time consuming complexity of giving orders. It also shows that when orders get more complex, the unit being given the orders may not understand them without further clarification. CMBB abstracts all of this by adding time for each waypoint. This is definitely more realistic than CMBO.

I love that SS Aligator in the river. Nice touch.

Congratulations BFC, you're currently #9 in Gamespot.com's Top 10 games (based on site traffic)! Keep up the good work!

I strongly disagree. The "fun" is very much alive in this game. In fact, it's more fun because I have greater options and control over my units. Folks complaining about the realism of "brittle troops" need to stop using cheap crappy troops. Folks complaining about the openness of maps need to start playing a varity of maps, not just the ones with wide open Steppes. Russia and Eastern Europe is not just open steppe land, there's a wide range of landscapes across region. But, when you do play the wide open maps, you need to re-educate yourselves. You must learn a new set of tactics, not use the ones you learned on the Western Front in CMBO. The fact is that most of us do want the ultra-realism, that's the whole philosophy behind CM. That's why we bought the game in the first place, Close Combat and Steel Panthers just don't cut it.

Anybody with a member # above 7000 is a newbie

First of all, you say nothing about using a T-34 properly. And the proper way to use the T-34 would be to use it on the move with shoot and scoot tactics, not in a head to head dual. The Stug cant fire on the move and has no turret, that's where the slight point advantage of the T-34 comes into play. Flank and kill. Secondly, you're comparing tanks solely on a tank vs tank basis. There are other uses for tanks other than killing enemy armor.. The T-34 is a better infantry killer because of it's large shell capacity and mgs. The Hetzer will probably kill a Sherman 105mm 9 times out of 10, yet the Sherman 105 costs a lot more. Does that make the prices wrong? No, because the Sherman 105 is not made for tank killing, it's made for infantry support. Use your armor to it's advantage and you'll get the most out of it. [ October 21, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Pak40 ]

Well, they're basically the same as in CMBO, so I don't see how that makes them lightweight. What do you mean by extreme slow downs? Is it only during stalingrad operation? Do you play Neverwinter Nights? If so, there is a memory leak associated with that game that makes Combat Mission and other 3D games slow to a crawl. Rebooting seems to be the only solution. Which side were you playing in the Siberian Devils OP?

No, kiss me first!

Once you play Combat Mission(either one), you will immediately see how all of the old board games, such as Squad Leader, are obsolete and archaic. The "we go" system is much more realistic as well as enjoyable. If you're the hardcore wargamer that's into the statistical side of things, you wont be disapointed. All of the information is available to you, such as armor thickness & slope, armor penetration charts, squad firepower, leadership modifyers, etc... Much more detail than in Squad Leader. Multiplayer - Play by Email or TCP/IP. You never have to worry about finding someone to play because you have an entire community on this board and on the Combat Mission Ladder sites. Replayability - With ASL you're limited to the map boards that you buy. They can be arranged in any fashion but they are still always the same old boards. However, with CMBO or CMBB you have unlimited number of maps that you or anyone else can make. The map maker is the single most powerful tool for replay value. You also get your money's worth. With the original Squad Leader, you maybe got 5 or 6 types of tanks. CMBO has every tank ever used in the U.S. arsenal and most tanks used by the British and Germans(west front). CMBB has dozens of tanks and SP guns used by the Russians and many almost all tanks ever used by the Germans. Smaller country's armor is used as well. Combine that with the scores and scores of other types of units, and well, you'll have more units in CMBB than in all of ASL's add-ons.

Foolish? Are you sure? Dor made a valid point; nazi symbols and nomenclature are strictly verboten but the Hammer and Sickle? </font>

Don't quote me on this but it seems to me that the computer takes the Attacker's unit that has advanced furthest and makes that point the middle of no mans land. Each side will then be "pushed back" according to half the no mans land setting. If the seeting is 200 meters then each side will be pushed back 100 meters. That's just my experience from playing the first operation in the list.

He's got a very good point. Flying above the battlefield is actually a lot more gamey than staying at level 1 and driving across the whole battlefield. Gun Dog, havn't you seen the tile mods for CMBO where people have exaggerated the land's color brightness/darkness? In other words, the higher the land, the lighter color of the grass. The lower the land, the darker the grass gets. These mods help a player gauge the overall 3D of the terrain, even from a birds eye view.