Mark IV

There are two different issues here. A "shooting withdrawal" command for squad level units, to deal with the back-turning non-shooting withdrawal problem, and ( some expeditious way to end a battle by withdrawing all forces. I have often wished for the former. A squad-level unit withdrawing under fire is still going to take a higher risk of casualties than one sitting pat, but they would do it in little sub-minute sub-squad leaps and bounds, with part of the men providing covering fire. There is no good command for this now. I do not see the reason for the latter. If you and your opponent agree that going on is pointless, you could Alt-C. If the other guy refuses the cease-fire, at least you aren't any worse off than before, and apparently there are still hostilities underway, making withdrawal of the entire force a tactical exercise.

3 Aussies = 1 bungled Peng Thread. They're getting better. I'm picturing one to hold the monitor up (probably impaled on some sort of knoife), one to hold his arm outstretched, one to smash the keyboard upward into his finger. Rules, threats, and the general atmosphere of hostility go in the first post, don't they? I will consult Lorak and Peng about returning all convict scum to SSN status. At least Goanna tried... he can be squad leader. Speaking of SSNs: Moriarty has taken to the alleys, befriending street people and supplying them with formal letters of introduction to the Highest Circles of CM illuminati. Like a well-fed trout, I snapped at the passing bait out of irritability rather than hunger. And what do I get? A setup that languidly describes geography, but fails to indicate minor details like whether I am attacking, defending, sitting in the pub instead of working, or rushing hell-bent for leather for the central flags in the classic 200 BC-era Meeting Engagement. Also, a 1500-pt. setup on a Large map. Picture the mission briefing: "Here, captain, are two platoons and a truck. Conquer Asia and report back by 0800 hours." SSNs. Ya can't live with 'em, and ya can't trick 'em all into moving to Australia.

Sorry, urban legend again. There is no definitive answer to the origin of the phrase, though everyone "knows" an explanation. The MG belt story also came from the Pacific... and there's another one about the alleged capacity of a bomb bay. whole nine yards? Whole Nine Yards

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: Am I correct in assuming that Lawyer's work uses the same damn Web-police service my company uses? Tis truly a sad day when they ban the CM forum from work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bastards, did the same damned thing to me. And you all wondered what dial-up connections were still good for :cool: . I've been out bothering the grogs, but it's time for a game update... chrisl: Hugging 3, possibly 4, edges in the fog and dropping boxcars by the trainload. A gamey slut who, it seems, failed to grow up very near where I very nearly had the same experience (within a half mile, or 800 kiloyards). As a result I am altering my birth records and mutilating my fingerprints, by pressing them against an icy glass until it is empty. I am attacking in all directions like a frenchman inhaling pure, uncut bratwurst. Peng: Same boxcars, different weather. Further from the edges and look what it's going to get him... the funnel to Hell. von Schrad: Sadly, he is worth more parted out than sold whole, and is in the shop having marketable organs removed. We have reached the moment of crisis in the vision of Hell that was our gift from the ex-post-boldo Germanboy, meaning duelling gamey flag rushes. Hard to rush on one leg... AND WHOSE AIRPLANES ARE THOSE, ANYWAY??? Geier: Gibbering in russki now, I can only assume he is defending with Ostfront vets who are crazed, but fortunately own the entire map. They also outnumber me 3 to 1 and every gefreiter has an MG42 of his very own. In short, I appear to be defending, but he has started out with all the flags. I suspect Germanboy set this one up too. Caen will be German for many decades to come. I hate being British, even for a few minutes a day. Hiram: Offered a handsome retainer by the wealthy gentleman he's been "seeing", he no longer has time for a conventional thrashing. We'll always be here for him when he's dumped. No wonder he stays out late.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene: Acoording to the way the system is now, why would the Germans bother with Mountain troops if regular Heer will do the job? What good are the SS? They're no better in the game than any other German unit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what the Heer kept saying. Crank up the Fanaticism, crank down the Experience (as the only CM quantifier of "classroom learning"), and all other things being equal, you've got a bunch of dead heroes. Obviously, many Waffen SS troops went on to attain great combat skill and presence. Many others who wore the runes were wrong time, wrong place, as many accounts of the Bulge (for example) show. Like the rest of the Wehrmacht, attrition took its toll on the quality of the 'cruits, and their professionalism was criticised from the get-go. The latest gear and a hell of an attitude is no substitute for survival as a fighting force. A lot of special troops had skills that are outside the scope of CM, and within a CM battle they are just triggers or targets like everybody else. Mountain troops were trained and organized to exist in mountainous country, but this includes a lot of logistical prep that has already taken place by the time our CM battle opens up. Assuming they got into harm's way, with guns and ammo, their mountaineering is over with, and now they are grunts. It isn't as though they have one leg longer than the other for loping along mountain trails, or greater lung capacity. They were organized to function logistically in mountainous terrain which is why the scenario is occurring where it is, in the first place. Many Gebirgsjaegers fought and died on ground as level as Kansas, because they were infantry units first and specialists second. Same with Engineers. They could build bridges, clear minefields (I mean really), and erect or clear near-impenetrable obstacles, but not usually within an hour under fire. Unfortunately, that is where CM finds them... in that hour where they are "up front" and returning rifle fire. Fallschirmjaegers are the classic example... cool MG for an air drop, but once you're on the ground, you find yourself looking around for spare MG42s. Like most special units, some of their equipment was a compromise for special situations, but they were thrown into the cauldron of conventional war with what they had at hand. By the time our CM scenario opens, they're on the ground and looking for cover and fire support like everyone else, no matter what kind of knife they had in their boot. If you had a scenario which modeled Ami regs and Gebirgsjaegers in a race to grab and hold a mountain-top against all comers, I think the gerbiltruppen as a rule would have an edge, as far as getting there fustest with the mostest. But the modifier required to reflect this would be awfully esoteric, and would be meaningless in the vast bulk of scenarios.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stuka: MBT was now a celestial nirvana where drinks are served on call by scantily clad Amazons bearing automatic weapons and the sheep graze peacefully on the meadows just past the palm tree fringed swimming pool and tennis court complex. No doubt he will be along shortly for a look see, will someone be so kind as to ensure the "Brick" is ready?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Send picture of automatic weapons. The rest sounds OK but a man must have standards. And tell Meeksie, the depraved little coward, that his turns are all ready and waiting on the old hard drive, albeit somewhat compressed by now.

Well, now Aitken's gone and encouraged him. Fieldmarshall/niles, I realize you are 15, and after 16 posts in two days of CM forum participation (prompting one to observe that there is niles crap everywhere, including the instant classic, "How do I unregister hear [sic]"), you are ready to make some changes. This is akin to a two-day old infant suddenly sitting upright in the incubator and offering medical advice on neo-natal care, and I applaud your precocious initiative. The fact is that Peng People once roamed these plains in huge herds, but were indiscriminately slaughtered for their thick scaly hides. Now the Peng thread is all they have left. It is only their towering screen presence which makes them seem like they are everywhere. A death sentence would be redundant to these once-proud souls, the remnants of whom now huddle in their preserve for the idle amusement of passers-by. Another perspective might be that the rest of the board has been banned from the Peng thread. Do not trifle with powers that you cannot hope to understand. There are very Dark Forces at work in there, and summoning them forth could be Highly Dangerous. And above all... DO A SEARCH. Every morning and every night before you go to bed. Thanks for thinking of u... er, them... and welcome to the CM Forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by REVS: The real people you little tinpot wankers are judging were involved in a real life and death struggle. Real, living human beings died, and these people did their best to try to make sure their side won, while more of the other side died... How about a minute's silence in honour of the real living human beings who died, doing their best, no matter how good or bad it was? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At least one valid point there, though I suspect almost everyone on the CM forum has spent more than a full minute contemplating the awful suffering and sacrifice of WWII. But with high rank comes high risks, and one of those is the judgment of history, even by suburban wankers. I object to even discussing Montgomery in any context of war's worst, because it is so obviously not the case. He arouses strong emotions, and some people cannot seem to dislike someone's traits while seeing their obvious merits, particularly under the conditions. So that part of your rant is well-placed. The fact is that many high-level appointments were political, or the result of internal politics, and real shooting wars strip the stars off one's shoulder until they are re-earned the hard way. Some commanders tried, and some just tried not to be to blame. Many of the great defeats were the result of an entire military system that was unprepared or broken down, faulty doctrine, or geo-political misfortune, that no commander could have prevented. The worst sort of generals did a greater disservice to the fighting man than any 50-year post mortem, and we are supposed to learn from this. All other things being equal there is a certain level of performance, competence, and energy expected of a high-level commander, and some failed to deliver it. Awareness of each commander's circumstances would certainly make for a more meaningful discussion. It's an OK discussion, as long as the BSometers are running.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't think enough Germans would have froze to death during a 30 minute battle to model them dropping from frostbite in the middle of a firefight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course not. They might start the 30 minute engagement Tired, or missing some guys, however. That is where the scenario designer comes in. All of Russia isn't always cold. Even the cold parts aren't always cold. And the Russian people did not grow up in trenches and swamps; even peasants have huts and fire. They did not spend 365 days a year tending crops in sub-zero fields, as some notions seem to suggest. Their normal body temperature and their water content was the same as the Germans'. For that matter, I froze pretty convincingly over 3 German winters myself, despite having led an outdoor life in Michigan. It is always colder outside. Zhukov makes many bitter mentions in his memoirs of the German commanders attempts to shift the blame for their defeat to the mud and snow, always pointing out that his own troops, and the hundreds of thousands of mobilized civilians working on fortifications and other logistical duties, labored under exactly the same conditions. While these conditions arguably take a greater toll on the attacker than the defender, winter '41 saw the Soviets as the attackers and the Germans as the defenders. It was just as cold for them both. In one of Zhukov's memos to Stalin, he is requesting 100 tons of anti-freeze to be allocated to an attack preparation. So perhaps the German national modifier should include the inability to anticipate the obvious... that winter comes every year, and that it will be cold. There does not seem to have been a Plan B for a contingency in which the Soviet Union failed to collapse on schedule. In any case, the scenario designer uses the game tools to recreate specific historical conditions. To create a meaningful national modifier for an Army of millions of individuals from all over European Russia and Asia and all that that spans over 4 years of war would be impossible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Firefly: General Perceval who surrendered Singapore to the Japanese without a fight...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To be fair, there certainly was a fight. The battle for Singapore was technically lost before the Japanese reached the city, but the assault on Singapore Island began on the 8th, and the surrender didn't come until the 15th. There was extremely heavy fighting during and after the Japanese crossings. The bulk of the troops in Singapore were at their end, however, many having fought all the way down the Malaya peninsula. III Indian Corps had been effectively destroyed in the retreat, having been consistently used as the rearguard for the other forces. Much of the paper strength of the garrison were raw recruits (both Indian and Australian) who had not even had weapons training. The Japanese had total air supremacy. As the Japanese tightened the perimeter around the city, effective resistance was no longer possible and Percival had little choice but surrender at that point. Troops in the city were looting, rioting, and attempting to flee in small boats at gunpoint (some made it). Percival certainly didn't defend the peninsula well and must still take most of the blame for the disaster (like German commanders in Russia, he blamed much of it on the "enervating climate" as though the attackers were somehow not subject to the same conditions). Deployment and use of troops were disastrous from beginning to end. Most of the Allied highlights were due to Australians and Indians, but their efforts were squandered by command decisions; the Japanese were well-prepared, well-led, and extremely aggressive. They often defeated numerically superior commonwealth forces in the campaign. Percival was definitely the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HRM JeffRoi: An interesting article on Yoshikawa <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for the ref.

Pennigan's Wake... I was just listening to the audio of the flight of Larry Walters, on the normally detestable Art Bell show. You remember, the guy who tied 40+ weather balloons to his lawn chair and got to 16,000 feet (that's 5000m for you Euros and other nouveaux metricists), and shot them out with his BB gun one at a time to descend. Then I logged on here and immediately read this Pengpost. Coincidence, or Fate, I ask you? Could our own SSNs harness the very bubbles of the pool to rise above themselves? What if the balloons had been merely suppressed, rather than shot out? Is Peng the Larry Walters of the CM board, and who is the metaphorical FAA? Above all, where in hell is my feckin' turn??? Truth, stranger than fiction.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On the off chance you were directing this question to me... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not really directing it at anyone, rather am firing in a general direction to suppress anti-Garand sentiments. Marching fire was one aspect of Patton's efforts to make commanders force men to shoot and move, shoot and move. Those ideas permeate everything he wrote. His problem wasn't with the American soldier or his equipment, but with the training doctrine and complacent commanders. This was corrected. People often forget that for the majority of American forces in the ETO the entire learning curve under fire was less than one year. The German organization of squad tactics around the MG is discussed so often here and elsewhere that I take it as a given. I'm only comparing shoulder-fired weapons. A determined Ami rifle squad created a real firestorm.

Yeah, so about them there rifles... What on earth would make you think that the M1 is a poor suppressor? Used correctly (as it often was, btw) under the right circumstances, it was a hellacious god-awful suppressor. At 60m, especially in village and forest, I believe the MP to be superior. But that isn't how most of the war was fought. Not all Germans had MPs anyway, far from it. I have here Patton's Letters of Instruction to the Third Army, dated April 1944 (War As I Knew It). In it he is already advocating "marching fire", of which he is known as the foremost advocate. Marching fire was SOP in Third Army long before its use spread over other American forces. He even gave specific advice to "shoot short" against an unseen enemy, because "ricochets make nastier sounds and wounds". He goes on to say that the "M1 rifle is the most deadly rifle in the world". Now, we all know the general was prone to pumping up the troops with a little friendly propaganda (his job, btw) which sometimes didn't bear a lot of postwar scrutiny. In this case, I happen to think he was more correct than not. The M1 had a very powerful round, overly so in my opinion (but not in the context of the times), with larger magazine capacity than the Mauser. It can pump lead in a marginally-aimed manner better than any other full powered non-full-auto of the war and reloads very quickly. In other words, unless they encountered a company exclusively armed with MP44s, the American rifle company could put out more shoulder-fired suppression than any comparable organization in the war. Training and doctrine were the reason that this was not fully exploited at first. Once recognized as a deficiency, it was corrected at the unit level by individual commanders on an increasingly widespread basis (Doubler). HT gunners also were brought to bear on snipers and infantry positions to simply spray the area, and give the enemy bad feelings. By the end of the war this was SOP (see The Incredible Year, diary of Donald J. Willis, HT and AT gunner). Tendency of the fired-upon to go to ground is hardly unique to American forces (nor was it US doctrine). Training, leadership, and experience are needed to correct it. After St. Lo, many US units were retrained behind the front in "new" techniques to storm specific objectives. They also learned to coordinate delivery of HE (direct and indirect) more effectively in the time-honored American practice of substituting material for lives when possible, a practice I happen to support.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elvis: This is like men playing with boys<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Send me the setup, O Master. Challenge yourself. I seek vengeance. Since you apparently killed Peng for good, I will allocate the time reserved for his turns to you, and slap you like the silly child you are.

Will grenade load-outs be tracked in CM2? Damn. Before catching the fireworks, I tried a little scenario, and now Steve goes and preempts me. 3 Reg Ami infantry platoons attacking in heavy woods against 3 Reg SMG platoons. Shooting started at 100m. Ya know what? My damned Ami rifle squads ran out of ammo, plinking at 100m, treeline to treeline. Meanwhile, my one flanking platoon closed with the uberburpers through the Tall Pines, and sort of Sneak-rushed from about 30 down to 0 meters. And lo, the SMGs gave way, and ran like dogs, and died like same. I don't know how much ammo they had left but they were mostly dead, mostly from defending in two directions. I had to run this since I rarely use SMG squads anymore, nor Sturmkompanies, nor any of the more exotic forms of Gerbiltruppen. The rifle 44 squad is my Axis instrument of choice, since then the whiners have nothing to squawk about (and if I lose, I can point to my under-equipped rifle 44 squads ). I have not had much trouble with opponents over-using SMG squads, and probably wouldn't recognize it if they did. They don't appear to be human chainsaws but they are nice in towns and deep forest. If I am Amis they are just more gray infantry to blast out. I try not to close with anyone unless I have to, then it's Storm City. I love Ami rifle squads... wish they had organic AT capability. And Panthers and 3" mortars. You'd think they would have switched over to Panzerfausts, Panthers, and 3" mortars around August '44, seeing how effective they all were.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace: I'd like the take the opportunity to thank -*SOB*- Peng for my nice new signature! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My god, what a badge of scorn, with oak leaves. How can you go on posting with that THING under your name? Peng, and the auld kannigget formerly known as Seanachai, the runische one has completed his tweaks to "Cut Off!" and I think it appropriate. I do recommend TCP/IP, otherwise we'll have to hear about the bloody thing until Christmas. And may I add, if you're not a little drunk by now, you're a piss-poor kind of American. Especially Aitken, one of the worst sort of Americans I can think of.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HRM JeffRoi: BTW to my knowledge there is not a single documented case of a Japanese-American either spying for Japan or conducting sabotage, yet *ALL* the Japanese-Americans on the west coast were moved to 'internment' camps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> While I obviously agree with much of the rest of your post, some Japanese were definitely spying. Reports from the Japanese consulate regarding ship movements could hardly be considered spying, as that is what consulates do. However, the FBI taps of a Mrs. Mori's personal phone calls to Japan leave little doubt that there was, indeed, some regular old spying going on. There was also a German inhabitant, Bernard Kuehn, in the pay of the Japanese, with an elaborate signalling method of lights and signals for reporting fleet movements to Japanese subs. There were probably others. After all, the British had spies there as well (Harry Dawson, the British vice-consul in Hawaii, was Secret Service).

Gentlepests: I have celebrated the Glorious Fourth as one should, in a TCP/IP victory over the French AND the Canadians. Lorak: Everyone's favorite frog, PawBroon: 20 Me and the good guys in the fetching steel hats: 80 Now prepare those asterisks, lads, as this was a beta thingie (as in test scenario, not as in CM2/BB, you idiots) as described by your evil local rune above. The most remarkable thing of all is that this is the most turns Pb has managed in a calendar year. It is the ideal vehicle for the evisceration, defenestration, and therapeutical lobotomization of the once-(pointlessly but touchingly) proud Seanachai, by Peng or his designated disciplinary disciple, albeit with tweaks I shall recommend, seconded no doubt by the froggische-canadische consortium of the horribly defeated, bleeding, and burning part. I don't intend this as a spoiler, but there were GUNS of all sorts, and some VEHICLES, and EXPLOSIVES. Also, some TREES. >>CAUTION<< Do not read the last bit if you want to be surprised. Actually, the best part was begging Emma in chat for Poobie's time. I had to promise her a very big fish. Happy Fourth of July. Let's snip those fuses short and REALLY scare the girls. [ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: Mark IV ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: An imaginary example to better illustrate my point: Let's take 10 riflemen. They shoot at a target for 3 seconds. 50 shots total. They hit a total of 2 times. A hit rate of 1/25 shots. Then 10 SMG men. They shoot at a target for 3 seconds. 300 shots total. They hit a total of 5 times. A hit rate of 1/60 shots. The better choise of weapons: SMG's The economical choise: rifles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Being dead is the ultimate economy. The problem with the example is that it is purely quantitative and occurs in a non-combatant vacuum. If the units are firing at one another, at 50m, the likelihood is that the rifle-equipped infantry will not get to fire all of their 50 rounds, due to suppression, and that is the whole point. Another classic historical example of quantity vs. quality, or ROF vs. foot-pounds, is the Little Big Horn. US troopers, encouraged to conserve ammo, are issued the .45-70 single-shot Springfield trapdoor rifle. This great honking buffalo gun is still devastating at 800m. It's bowling ball of a slug (on the order of 375-390 gr., I forget) can flatten large animals, penetrate masonry, and volley fire with effect to 1000m and more. The Indians bring a fair quantity of repeating Henry and some Winchester rifles, with ballistics more on the order of the MP44's ammo, or worse. Unhindered by conservative military ordnance doctrine, they create a hail of suppressive fire at intermediate ranges. This slows the tempo of return fire from the single-shot boys (who are in the open tall grass, providing concealment rather than cover), and every lucky hit permanently reduces the available "economical choices" by one, and the effect begins to multiply. The math does its job and many of the dead troopers have boxes and bandoliers full of powerful, economical, and unexpended bullets. Had the engagement occurred at 500m, few people would today recall the Little Big Horn, just another skirmish in the Plains, with the Indians driven off with losses. The military establishment changes slowly, and it is very difficult to change doctrines in the middle of a war, especially within a year and a half, particularly when it requires a massive reissue of equipment and retraining. Many would agree that the Sherman itself was the result of an incomplete grasp of the direction of armored warfare, based on a notion that had been proven faulty and obsolete not long after D-Day. But what are you going to do once you're in Europe with tens of thousands of the buggers, and a job to do? Find a way to use them. The M1 rifle was in no way as wanting vs. its competition as the Sherman was, vs. German armor. However, the argument that if SMGs were superior at close range, the Army would have adopted them wholesale, ignores the practical reality of such a sudden and massive change. SMGs are better, under 60m or so, for all-out firefights. I haven't been convinced here that they would run out of ammo any sooner. Since a good deal of the war was fought at ranges over 100m, and since the troops were already trained and armed with very good M1s, there would have been no compelling reason to scrap them and the tactical philosophies that went with them to re-arm with SMGs, even if they were demonstrably superior under the right conditions.

Mi-chi-gan. Say it slowly, dogs. Let it roll from your lips like frothing bubbles of single-malt saliva. You are not worthy, but you can savor the essence in every syllable. The rivers are thick with fish, the forests teem with game. Women are perky, healthy, provincial, and impressed with gold cards. The Great Lakes frame this shimmering jewel with a glittering cornucopia of fresh seafood and sweet-water abundance. Sadly, there are 48 other weeks in the year, but Michigan glimpses nirvana in a way that no other state except Maui can realize. The innovative 10-cent deposit law shows that the poor have an alternative to Social Security, and without Detroit we'd have to lease Indian land to try out new anti-personnel weapons, since we crossed Puerto Rico off the list, and I hope they like the Caribbean SSR they're headed for, but I digress. Long the bastion against Canadian aggression, Michigan was founded by glaciers, who in turn invited Cadillac to land in 1701 (one of my ancestors came with him), and who fitted the native elk with tailfins. Being a frog he lost it in short order to several different nationalities at once. My ancestor got a street name out of the deal and we're really quite vain about it. Which reminds me that anyone who hasn't read Francis Parkman, has not read American history. Check out the Conspiracy of Pontiac. My man could pen a line or two, talk about voice. Ya wantcher blood and guts? Ya wantcher dead Brits? Ya wanna sacrifice a puppy to the Manitou? Read anything this guy wrote. So Minnesotan chatter is about what I'd expect from people who think the Siege of Leyden is a WWF event, and that the Duke of Parma was a boxer from the Cleveland area. The Golden Age of Holland was the last most perfect society before the modern US, but they failed to pass the deposit law, and now they're smookijn hasheesh in public and wearing earrings on both sides. Lesson learned. Obligatory WWII content: Oh yeah, Michigan was also known as the Arsenal of Democracy and made every friggin' tank, gun, and airplane used by all 6 sides, while Minnesotans were still trying to hack a panzer out of stumps with chain saws three years after the war was over.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC: I would like any of the critic chorus to address what they think would be *innaccurately* modeled if my proposals were acted upon, and how all-fired serious it would be. Just how, exactly, would an Germany FJ platoon with 35 shots instead of 40 (from 6 LMGs, 8 MP40s, 9 MP44s, and 10 rifles), grossly misrepresent the historical realities of the FJ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think there is some interesting discussion here, but... "how all-fired serious it would be" IF your "proposals were acted upon"? I trust some of it was monitored by those responsible for producing CM2. I certainly hope they haven't been persuaded to delay plunking a T-34 into my living room by so much as an hour, so that Fallschirmjaeger squads in CMBO may have 35 instead of 40 shots, which any scenario designer could accommodate with a click or two right now, if he felt it was warranted. I know that aimed MP40 fire under 100m, certainly under 50m, can be accurate, and fired in 3-round bursts, not conspicuously consumptive. As the range closes they are wicked in trained hands, not in the least part because of the confidence they inspire in the shooter, and the suppression they induce in the shot-at. So anyway, all other things being equal, if the effects of the change are by your own admission unimportant... ? 'Nother case of grenades with that?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC: SMG ammo weighs at least half what rifle ammo does per round, and often more (90-125 grains vs. 150-180 grains are typical figures for 9mm MP ammo vs. 30 cal rifle ammo - incidentally the .45 cal tommy gun has far heavier rounds).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oops... you're comparing slug weights. Unfortunately, the infantry has to carry the whole darn catridge, which includes the brass casing and powder and stuff. A loaded 7.92 cartridge is what, three times longer than a 9mm? You need the loaded weight of each cartridge, which will include a substantial amount of brass. I have the rounds here handy, but no suitable scale... Edited to note that the full designation of each round includes the case length: 9 x 19mm is the Parabellum (Luger) SMG round, 8 x 57mm is the 8mm Mauser for rifles and MGs. [ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: Mark IV ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CombinedArms: French Gen. Jacque Phillipe LeClerc--an amazing story. After fleeing France following the 1940 defeat, he helped hold various French colonies in Africa for de Gaulle. Finding himself Chad 's military commandant, he fought his way up to North Africa (>1500 miles through African desert!) with a small colonial force, defeating larger forces all along the way, and linking up with Monty in Tripoli in early '43. He formed the French 2nd Armored Div., fought his way to Paris, helped capture it (thanks, Ike!) and later, serving in the 6th Army Group, rolled his tanks into Strasbourg. Just lost out in the race to the Berchtesgaden! All in all, an amazing record--from Chad to the Berchtesgaden in twenty-five easy steps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A record that included allowing untold extra thousands of Germans to escape the Falaise trap through his own selfish myopia, deliberately snarling the advance of 5th Armored Division before Argentan by completely disobeying march routes, and leaving the surrounded Poles to die in the Coudehard Hills (Maczuga) as even more Germans escaped, in order to preserve his victory parade into Paris. There is more than one school of thought on this gentleman and "underrated" might not be entirely accurate, depending on who is doing the rating....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC: rifle ammo is not appreciably harder to carry than SMG ammo. In the US army, the standard practice was to carry 10 M-1 magazines (each 8 rounds) in the standard issue cartridge belt, another mag in the gun. And from all I have read from vets it was common practice to add 2 bandoliers of ~100 rounds each as well, worn over the shoulders (...snip...) In German units, it was common for riflemen to carry extra belts for the squad MG....Defenders were far from having unlimited quantities of ammo, and the idea that defenders do not move is simply false. Almost all defenders were in action regularly, at new positions typically every day or two. And for small arms at the front, supplied by infantry humping the stuff in themselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Rifle ammo isn't any harder to carry, there are just fewer shots per pound/kilo. There are only so many carry pounds/kilos per squad, and SMGs get way more shots per pound/kilo. If the MG ammo is a wash, meaning both sides had to shoulder this burden, the excess capacity for each individual soldier still allowed more "shots" per grunt if he had to carry pistol ammo. If he used more "shots" per burst, then we likely have another wash, unless you have stats on shots per burst. Defenders didn't have unlimited qtys. of ammo, but I think they generally would have, in the time span of a CM engagement. They had shorter supply lines to begin with, as a general rule, and had fewer constraints on supply than an attacker, with all he was going to get, for the next few hours, on his back. Every situation is different and that's where the designer comes in. If they just took the hill, and are in turn defending it, they will have less ammo than if they have been on the hill all morning, getting ready for an inevitable onslaught. Even on the EF you don't hear much about units running out of ammo in 30 minutes. Factual and anecdotal accounts do nothing to outweigh the sheer quantitative difference between the ability of a man to carry pistol ammo and the ability of the same man to carry rifle ammo. There are fewer shots, per equal and available man/load, with rifle ammo, than with SMG ammo. SMGs go through them faster. It is hard for me to picture real people in battle stripping rounds from their M1 mags to feed the MG, though the opposite could work a little, I suppose, if they were desperate. The original hypothesis is yours: SMG squad ammo capacity should be reduced, and the game mechanics should be adjusted to reflect this. I do not see the compelling reason for that. Somewhere between 100 and 250m, the FP of a pure Reg SMG squad drops from 72, to 4. If a guy chooses to blow his ammo load on "4"s you could let him have it, without serious repercussions. The more 4s he wastes the better, no? [ 07-01-2001: Message edited by: Mark IV ]