New file at the Repository: (SC2G) Brute Force 1939-1945 v1.0 (2010-03-14)

[Big Al]

I took no offense dont worry You want to see delays go to the Matrix website under World in Flames. Now thats a delay 5+ years.

NEW version will be up by 5:15PM no April's Fools either

UPDATE: PvP and PvAI updated with all current bugs fixed. I think I finally got them all. After some network PvP testing last night (in which SC2 crashed on the 3rd turn ugh) my buddy Lane (beta tester) came up with some ideas and suggestions which of course required more scripting and adjustments.

#1 Graff Spee is 10 str, 1 exp representing not only the Graff Spee but also the Auxillery Cruisers out at sea. Location lower left Atlantic.

#2 CW minor African allies upgradable at 2x cost, up from no upgrades.

#3 Italian East Africa has now 4 corp (up from 2) and 1 DD str 5 more accurately representing Italian forces there.

#4 Canada movment fixed. I manually tested it myself. Please dont make me look like a fool AI.

#5 USA Pacific movements improved (although keep in mind Pacfic is tough for USA AI)

#6 Manchurian garrison situation fixed for USSR and Japan although I think the patch fixed it.

#7 AI sneakiness and reaction scripts added for..... well you will have to find out on your own.

#8 Added ~100 MPPs to each starting players production pool.

#9 German AI in Russia smarter after 1943

#10 5 armies and 5 corps added to Russian force pool. Their lines were a little thin.

#11 Russian AI now permanently garrisons Leningrad, Stalingrad, and Moscow

USA tied to France. Reason for this is because the exploitation of resources will be less if the USA controls them than if the UK controls them. A strategy would be dont defend France and let the UK use all the MPPs (~1000 in total till 6/1940). With the USA in control it really will not make a difference in the late war but for the UK in control it will in the early war.

----

Considerations for your thoughts.

PvP game

Make USA Pacific a minor like in PvAI. It keeps the human USA player from moving units into or out of the Pacific or swapping BBs for SSs or DDs in Pearl Harbor. Same force pool as a whole USA.

Mobilization Effects for USA and UK -> USA if they move units in the Pacific it will lower USA entry. This is done to prevent a preparation of defenses for Allies vs Axis.

PVAI game

Starting depleted units removed or not? My thoughts behind this was they represent mobilization of forces. The UK had 9 divisions in 9/1939 and 34 in 5/1940. The Germans had ~60 or so in 9/1939 and 150 in 5/1940. Thats a lot to produce. I feel depleted units allow a player various strategy options to do what they want with like keep units low and using them as garrisons in Poland, Denmark, and Norway while deploying MPPS to build planes and ships. Or beef them up and go all out Barbarosa. In Japan you can focus on building up the units that you plan to use in a specific attack while not wasting resources on garrisons. The negative Lane saw was that players might see those units as tedious and a lack of immidiate action in the game with fewer full strength units. In other words less fun. He and I see both sides and personally like depleted units with the option of doing what we want as game momentum builds up. But I wanted everyone elses opinion.

5:15 it should be up on the server PvP and AI versions. in PvP the main change is in East Africa.

[kirkgregerson87]

Hmmm, conquered France set up Vichy and received NO plunder? Is that part of the Brute Force mod? Cause that is 'brutal'

or... is that a bug? Think there should be some plunder if especially if Belgium and other minors give a bit of plunder. Was kind of counting on 400-500 MMP for Germans? Please tell me this is a mistake? Of course then I have to restart this PvP for the second time, or maybe not.

[Big Al]

My Vichy is scripted just like Vichy in the main game so its probably a bug Im guessing.

[yolo911]

See link on 2nd page.

I know I am being dense but I went to the 2nd page, I assume you mean the 2nd page of this thread becauase there was no other description in the post. I couldn't spot any link.

[Big Al]

http://www.wowfreegames.com/html/brute_force_sc2/main.html

Reminder: Alternate counters are not fixed to the new system. So dont use them.

Right now as it stands barring any real ugly bugs the mod is complete. The only thing left to do is modify AI for better play and thats where you all come in. If you see the AI doing something pretty bad let me know. Also let me know if this mod is fun or if I can make it more fun. Even though I like it personally its more about giving the public a different option. I can also copy my own version for myself if all the wargamers want something different.

Also I will come out with better documentation soon.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Post #53, tho Al reposted it.

Question about Iraqis-they already had the pro-Axis coup happen, and I took Egypt, and now my entire force down there is in Jordan...and the readiness % (70% Axis) hasn't budged. I would have sworn that all of Hubert's vanilla scenarios had a trigger down there to cause them to swing all the way to Axis if that happened.

Nevermind, just as I typed this they triggered all the way-tho the 6 chits I had on them might have helped of course.

And I keep getting messages about French partisans doing damage, but all cities and resources remain untouched.

[Big Al]

My iraq is slightly different. Something I gotta put in the notes. Once the Axis start accumulating on the border they start switching sides and become an axis ally. So probably you hit their border and they got a bonus. Same applies to Persia. And getting on the inside of the USSR via Causcaus activates Turkey.

Historically Turkey wanted nothing to do with the war but of course those who are winning influence decision. Very late in the war the Allies convinced Turkey to join. The allies get the same thing, the more they take from Germany the more Turkey shifts.

Did you bump up the experience on the AI? I usually do .5 or 1.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I didn't on this run because I wanted to get a feel for what would confront me in a human vs. human match (the math of combat mostly).

Aaaannnd I just got an Axis Decisive Victory by taking Moscow (and I assume Tehran contributed to that). I think that is a little early for the Allies to throw in the towel.

[Big Al]

Ill check victory conditions

[jjdenver]

China seems somewhat out of whack in the mod. I'm in a pvp game Oct 1940. The Japanese player added some infantry tech to his unit (I think Inf Tech 1), landed the 2 Japanese marines in the south, built his units up to strength 10, and went on the offensive.

The U.S. has spent every single MPP in China to rebuild losses, and has only bought 1 research chit for itself - no other U.S. MPP's spent on anything other than China. Chungking has fallen just from a meatgrinder Japanese assault that has Japan taking very few losses and the U.S. MPP pool drained just to try to keep the Chinese units up to 8 or 10 strength.

U.S. entry is at about 55. U.S. income is not even enough to rebuild all Chinese units to full strength each turn.

It also looks like Chinese cities captured by Japan are going higher than level 5 - i.e. 6+. Is this right?

Is there anything that can be done to help out the Chinese situation to make it a little more historical? Namely: Make it harder for Japan to conquer them, and prevent China from completely draining all U.S. MPP's prior to war?

I'm not sure the U.S. entry hit for Chinese cities taken is working correctly. I think I've seen the message that U.S. is alarmed 2 or 3 times - but not for every city taken.

I'm also not sure the MPP situation is working correctly - my understanding was that U.S. MPP's would be +5 for each Chinese city that falls? I don't think this is happening but not sure.

Maybe Japanese army is just too strong? Or there should be some other hit against Japan for Chinese cities taken? Or maybe some entrenchments for China? Maybe U.S. production goes up drastically as Chinese cities fall to help offset the cost of paying for the war? Not sure really what would work.

Another problem seems to be that the CW minors that are supposed to be treated like major power units in terms of tech upgrades don't seem to be working correctly.

For example India can tech up but Australia can't tech up their units. This makes me wonder whether the rules are correctly working to prevent the minor power tech disadvantages from applying to India and Australia and S. Africa?

Another thing that I've noticed is that the CW countries have very small force pools. India I think can build 1 army and some air units? S. Africa can build nothing (?) Australia might be able to build a corp or something - but not much. Is this right? It seems tough to reinforce the middle east when the commonwealth countries can't build land units to defend themselves and to send to Mideast.

With China so easy to take out for Japan, and the Commonwealth force pools so very small - once the Japanese army is released from China it will be easy to overrun Siberia, India, Australia, S. Africa, and the Mideast for Japan. Their land force pool is just huge compared to India's 2 or 3 units for example. There's no way to defend against it.

[Big Al]

China seems somewhat out of whack in the mod. I'm in a pvp game Sep 1940. The Japanese player added some infantry tech to his unit (I think Inf Tech 1), landed the 2 Japanese marines in the south, built his units up to strength 10, and went on the offensive.

The U.S. has spent every single MPP in China to rebuild losses, and has only bought 1 research chit for itself - no other U.S. MPP's spent on anything other than China. Now in Sep 40 Chungking is about to fall just from a meatgrinder Japanese assault that has Japan taking very few losses and the U.S. MPP pool drained just to try to keep the Chinese units up to 8 or 10 strength.

U.S. entry is at 50 or a little less. U.S. income is not even enough to rebuild all Chinese units to full strength each turn.

Historically the Japanese could push the line whenever they wanted. 20k Japanese could take on 200k chinese. But there is a balance with SC2 that must be made. I can approach this 2 ways. #1 have the Japanese cost dearly in MPPs or USA entry and I have to do this at the same time I make it worthwhile to stay in China and not lose more than gained.

MPP cost is them sacrificing repairing their fleet at the cost of men to kill China and of course if they do kill china the USA comes in early and they have not prepared for the late war. In World in Flames this is the same scenario except the chance is roughly 50/50 they kill then by 1943.

It also looks like Chinese cities captured by Japan are going higher than level 5 - i.e. 6+. Is this right?

Higher level? You mean city level? I think that is linked to MPPs the max supply for Japan should be 8.

Is there anything that can be done to help out the Chinese situation to make it a little more historical? Namely: Make it harder for Japan to conquer them, and prevent China from completely draining all U.S. MPP's prior to war?

Spend less, give land for time. I'll ask this question... is your partner a better player than you if so by a lot or a little? That makes a difference. But yes there are things that can be done to improve situations. I know of one already I will implement in the next batch. Anyone else finding the same results in China?

I'm not sure the U.S. entry hit for Chinese cities taken is working correctly. I think I've seen the message that U.S. is alarmed 2 or 3 times - but not for every city taken.

I'm also not sure the MPP situation is working correctly - my understanding was that U.S. MPP's would be +5 for each Chinese city that falls? I don't think this is happening but not sure.

They get +1-3 activation and there are 9 scripts (one for each city). I will double check them again to make sure I didnt make an error. Normally historically the USA should be at ~85 at the start of 1942. If China is conquered on average they get +18 more points which places them in the war at the start of 1942.

Maybe Japanese army is just too strong? Or there should be some other hit against Japan for Chinese cities taken? Or maybe some entrenchments for China? Not sure really what would work.

Japan starts off with their troops +1 exp. I will drop that down. I would like to hear from others though.

Another problem seems to be that the CW minors that are supposed to be treated like major power units in terms of tech upgrades don't seem to be working correctly.

For example India can tech up but Australia can't tech up their units. This makes me wonder whether the rules are correctly working to prevent the minor power tech disadvantages from applying to India and Australia and S. Africa?

That was a mod error that has been corrected. Thanks for finding it.

Another thing that I've noticed is that the CW countries have very small force pools. India I think can build 1 army and some air units? S. Africa can build nothing (?) Australia might be able to build a corp or something - but not much. Is this right? It seems tough to reinforce the middle east when the commonwealth countries can't build land units to defend themselves and to send to Mideast.

UK 6inf, 2army, 2gar, 3arm

Can 2inf, 1arm

Aus 3inf, 2army, 1arm

Egypt 1inf

NZ 2inf

Kenya/Iganda 1inf

S. Africa 1inf

India 3inf 2army 1arm

TOTAL 19inf, 6army, 5arm, 2 gar

Thats about what they really had not including special units. They were a naval power not land power mind you. I did add one more to Kenya/Uganda. I forgot I made them one country.

With China so easy to take out for Japan, and the Commonwealth force pools so very small - once the Japanese army is released from China it will be easy to overrun Siberia, India, Australia, S. Africa, and the Mideast for Japan. Their land force pool is just huge compared to India's 2 or 3 units for example. There's no way to defend against it.

I am going to start another PvP game with my buddy sometime this week. So we will see what happens. Not sure if in China I want to make them tought (or Japan weaker) or penalize them more with USA entry. I'll have to weigh it out.

But thanks for feedback. When I make a scenario I start with history and modify for fun from there.

[jjdenver]

"Spend less, give land for time. I'll ask this question... is your partner a better player than you if so by a lot or a little? That makes a difference. But yes there are things that can be done to improve situations. I know of one already I will implement in the next batch. Anyone else finding the same results in China?"

I'm not sure whether he's a better tactical player but I'll say China is not a theatre that allows a lot of tactics. Movement is very limited, Chinese just place their units in the way of the Japanese in the best terrain possible. China gave up a few cities in the north for free or cheap due to the Japanese closing on Chungking in the south. But really everywhere the Japanese go is cheap. Seeing a single Japanese infantry strength point lost feels like a victory for China.

I don't know if it's possible to spend less w/o just abandoning central China. If you retreated to Urumchi you could spend less.

I'm glad to hear you're headed into a PVP game. Hopefully your Japanese player pushes China. Taking away Japanese experience might help.

China doesn't feel like a quagmire for Japan at all currently. Japanese losses are very light, Chinese losses are very heavy, and the Japanese just steadily roll over China.

As for CW - thanks for the numbers. I'll have another look. I currently have 3 ground units in India and there is a lot to defend w/ the japanese likely to be headed overland from China as well as invading by Sea. S. Africa in particular seems light. I know they had troops deployed to Egypt but in the game I'd be loathe to send the single S. African unit anywhere as that invites conquest of S. Africa.

[Titan]

How do you D/L the mod Scenerios as the standard one looks no better than a modded Sc2 gloabal, a crunched up Europe and lots of ocean which is not nessescary a bad thing, keeping it to scale. I bought this more for the fact to get a decent mod. After trying to work out how to get new password sorted i still cant get get to the modded scenarios as it directs me to a the same page

[Titan]

http://www.battlefront.com/?mosmsg=ERROR%3A+Unauthorized+Access.

How do i get past this

[Cantona66]

As i understand the repository is unavailable now and will be up sometime week.

Then my mod (with focus on Europe) will be there

[Big Al]

This is where my current mods are. But this is not updated as to recent suggestions. And someone found a bug in the CW nation tech ups. I'll have something fixed up today.

http://www.wowfreegames.com/html/brute_force_sc2/main.html

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Just finished (effectively) a game vs. a flat (+0 +0) AI. Yes, I was very aggressive in China-so much so that a competent US player would have owned my fleet (but the AI "forgot" where Kido Butai (5 CVs strong) was in the Battle of the Marshalls Islands, and they lost most of their fleet because my CVs were only attacked a couple of times). Other than the stuff I mentioned upthread, the US never did anything in the European Theatre (was that a waiting for the patch issue Al?), and the British Overlord was pathetic (esp. considering I was invading him at the same time with 5 CV's, 15 air units, dozens of land units about to land, etc.). Russia seems to be lacking a lot of the Urals industry/mines and southern oil they had, and I never saw any Siberian reinforcements-even at +2/+2 they would have been a cakewalk.

Why are German subs half the cost of those of the other majors? As a u-boat buff that was a pleasant surprise (and 7 +5 experience tech 3 subs running around taking 100 MPPs a turn from a helpless Britain was fun in a way, don't get me wrong).

I'd also seriously think about a tech revamp-say 400 MPP chits (1 max) for a 25% shot at a level. You'd be virtually guaranteed to get what you want in 6 months (or, bump the max chit level back up to 5), but you'd have to focus research more carefully.

[Big Al]

Just finished (effectively) a game vs. a flat (+0 +0) AI. Yes, I was very aggressive in China-so much so that a competent US player would have owned my fleet (but the AI "forgot" where Kido Butai (5 CVs strong) was in the Battle of the Marshalls Islands, and they lost most of their fleet because my CVs were only attacked a couple of times).

Naval fleet AI island hopping + invasions is hard. Ive been improving it. Tough to coordinate the two. But I beleive I came up with an new effective system. Im ironing it out. Its using the fleet scripts in a sneaky way. I think the AI fleets do not react to movement unless its subs so everything has to be programmed. But yea I noticed the fleets dont stay around long enough.

Other than the stuff I mentioned upthread, the US never did anything in the European Theatre (was that a waiting for the patch issue Al?), and the British Overlord was pathetic (esp. considering I was invading him at the same time with 5 CV's, 15 air units, dozens of land units about to land, etc.).

Torch should be fixed. Its working in my AI vs AI tests now. You might have had an older version. British overlord is the UK and Sealion? I'll look into that.

Russia seems to be lacking a lot of the Urals industry/mines and southern oil they had, and I never saw any Siberian reinforcements-even at +2/+2 they would have been a cakewalk.

Still testing out the balance there. I am considering making a physical rail so the AI can rail back those units. Not sure what to do about Siberian transfer. To give siberian transfer I have to split Russia.

Why are German subs half the cost of those of the other majors? As a u-boat buff that was a pleasant surprise (and 7 +5 experience tech 3 subs running around taking 100 MPPs a turn from a helpless Britain was fun in a way, don't get me wrong).

German subs do 60% the MPP damage and are 60% the cost. It spreads out the damage and goes hand in hand with the smaller German subs. The USA, for example, had much larger subs than the Germans. Each had subs to fit their theatre. I was finding that normal subs for Germany meant they did ok damage but as soon as you found that sub it was the end of the u-boat war. And giving them too many subs to compensate didnt go well either. Also the German player never had enough money to build subs.

I'd also seriously think about a tech revamp-say 400 MPP chits (1 max) for a 25% shot at a level. You'd be virtually guaranteed to get what you want in 6 months (or, bump the max chit level back up to 5), but you'd have to focus research more carefully.

Mathematically I worked it out that you can have some techs at 5 in 1945 but not most. The reason why I dont like high tech chances is because of SUPER focus. Lets say I am going after Russia. I'd dump all my points into Inf Weapons, Fighters, Heavy Tanks. Thats it. The Russians do not have the economy to do the same. I could build cheap no tech infantry corps as garrisons and tech the armies and tanks up. Now I have a super effective fighting force that can pick and choose their targets and my non-tech units are garrisons or at worst can hold a defensive line fairly well vs the unteched Russians. I find fighter tech the MOST important element in the game. You dont control the skies you dont control anything. So I chose a slower approach to technology where 1 player couldnt stack 2 or 3 levels on another. But with any mod you can change it to your liking.

One thing to consider is you really cant play the game at level 0. You need to give the AI +.5 or +1 experience to make it competitive. The base game, included by Battlefront, gives units to the AI to make them tougher. I like counter balancing their inefficiency with experience. When you play it at zero experience it effectively handicaps the AI because due to their ineffeciency they produce less MPPs. The AI is wasteful in production, rails, and upgrades so MPPs are spent needlessly. When you play with the AI at a higher experience level you counteract that because they take less damage, thus spend less MPPS, and you take slightly more. Less units = faster AI routines. So I will work on game improvements tonight and upload a new version. I am testing 2 AIvAI games, a PvP game, and PvAI game... whilst all working on another project.

Thanks for the input though. It allows me to keep a better eye on spefici potential problems that you mentioned.

[jjdenver]

FYI - I found out another tidbit in the game where China is getting crushed. The Japanese player got an early (turn 4) hit on Infantry Tech. This was a major boost for the Japanese. I guess it's not always likely that will happen. In the same game Soviets have had infantry tech chits at 1 or 2 all game long and still don't have a tech hit. Germans are at 3 infantry tech. It's quite a crap shoot and a really important tech for some countries.

Also as for Russia you wrote:

"Still testing out the balance there. I am considering making a physical rail so the AI can rail back those units. Not sure what to do about Siberian transfer. To give siberian transfer I have to split Russia"

I don't think you need any Siberian transfer. The Soviets start w/ some units in Siberia and can decide when or if to transfer them to Europe.

Aside from things being thrown way out of whack if Germany or Soviets gets a big lead in IW tech - I think the Soviet MPP production seems to be quite concentrated in European Russia. I'm not sure how industry transfer is scripted but it seems like some more Soviet MPP generation in the Urals might be needed if Soviets are going to be able to trade land for time. Red Army seems small as well but maybe I'll feel differently about that once war starts and the extra depleted units come in.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

One thing to consider is you really cant play the game at level 0. You need to give the AI +.5 or +1 experience to make it competitive.

As I said upthread I did that because I wanted to get a feel for game balance in a human vs. human game, both in terms of combat and economics (admittedly knowing of course that to a large extent that would be an iffy task at best). The relative lack of any Russian resistance at all (economically mainly) was a pertinent outcome of that; in 1942 he simply didn't have the hordes of new units that I would expect, and, given the expanded map/resources for the other players, the relative lack of Russian mines/oil and Ural industrial centers was glaring. And in the future I don't know if I will be aggressive in China, as it's literally thousands of MPPs spent (mainly in terms of new garrisoning ground units) to capture 18-36 MPP/turn worth of towns.

[SeaMonkey]

Just my opinion, but when testing scenarios for balance in the h vs h mode, I've found that playing a hotseat against yourself is the best way to examine the various options available at that game turn moment. If the observations are to be extensive, then multiple reloads usually reveal any indiscretions the play balance as you explore the various outcomes.

I realize that this concise focus on play balance consumes a lot of the player's time but it does seem to offer some of the best unbiased conclusions of how the game will eventually play out, especially if you are a veteran of the gameplay dynamics.

[Big Al]

Ahh someone understands the China dilema.

Japan took what they needed in China. There are 2 approaches to China... to conquer them outright or to take enough to secure a border then just attrit their economy out of the game favorably by bombing.

I'll be up for a PBEM with anyone. I'll take either side. If more than 1 step up I would rather take one Axis game and one Allied game.

Im playing an AI +.5 right now and Im not walking over China. If I commit to it I can take them out but like John said it will cost me in the long run.

Updates:

added 1 armor to French Prod Quere

Japan only +.5 exp in china

Corrected CW minor tech upgrade error

Kenya +1 corp

Better Sealion Defense

Victory condition fixed

Russia got 5 corp + 5 army added to force pool (I think I mentioned this already)

OPINIONs

Now we heard 2 points of view on China. One that "they die quick" another that it drains Japanese economy. With the lower EXP for Japanese units I think this should balance out the damage. I am considering raising the USA mobilization level a little.

TESTING Germany starting off with level 2 subs.

As for Russian production: Everything I have learned so far about russian production has to do with their Baku oil. It was critical to their production facilities because of all the different components oil produced including powering electricity, lubrication, oil for tanks and planes, cut off of allied resources. Another not known fact is that Moscow was more critical than people think. The Moscow industrial area created some very specific high tech parts such as optics for aircraft.

But if anyone wants PBEM let me know.

[Big Al]

Just my opinion, but when testing scenarios for balance in the h vs h mode, I've found that playing a hotseat against yourself is the best way to examine the various options available at that game turn moment. If the observations are to be extensive, then multiple reloads usually reveal any indiscretions the play balance as you explore the various outcomes.

I realize that this concise focus on play balance consumes a lot of the player's time but it does seem to offer some of the best unbiased conclusions of how the game will eventually play out, especially if you are a veteran of the gameplay dynamics.

Im going to try that in the future. It takes time to perfect a game. WIF has been here for 15 years I think and it still isnt perfect

[Big Al]

Im sorry I didnt update yesterday my son got sick, either strep or the flu so we had a little emergency. I have to watch him today while the wife is at work. But when he naps I will update and upload. We had an exausting night.

[Big Al]

Japs have A/C Tech 1 - up from zero - CVs have zero exp now

Added defensive scripts for AI

Added Russo-German Trade +25 MPPS

Arty APs= 3 now.

Minor bug fixes

moved france to USA control.

Russia got 5 corp + 5 army added to force pool

Victory condition fixed

Kenya +1 corp

added 1 armor to French Prod Quee

Japan only +.5 exp in china

Corrected CW minor tech upgrade error

OPTIONS

#1 I find the USA very lacking in MPPs early war. I was considering placing their ships in Queue so it comes out or Jacking them up by giving them MPPs so they can build a navy using DE events. That way the played can choose what he wants.

#2 Do you all find a lack of land units? Either too expensive or not enough?

#3 air units 55 allied, 38 Axis. Contrast the World at War has 47 allied and 31 axis. Anyone find this a lot of air?

PvP and PvAI uploaded to site