BF.C; status on OpenGL support from Nvidia?

[c3k]

Like it states, I'm curious if there's been any communication with Nvidia about how their latest drivers have "broken" OpenGL support? If so, has Nvidia even acknowledged an issue with OpenGL?

(This is the flash issue, whereby any illumination results in ALL surfaces facing the source of the illumination getting the FULL illumination. The intensity of the illumination is attenuated by neither obstacles nor distance. This makes a 2km by 2km map appear to be at the peak of a record breaking lightning storm every time a machinegun fires.)

Rumors have it that Nvidia is about to release their "Fermi" based chips. Alongside the new chips will be new drivers. This would be a good opportunity for a fix.

(Apparently OpenGL worked correctly up to series 188 drivers; current version is around 196. All from memory, that.)

Thanks,

Ken

[CptWasp]

As I pointed out in the thread "Graphical glitches" (http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=88085) we really need a patch from NVidia. Please do something to sensitize them of this issue, Battlefront.

[c3k]

Agreed: if BF.C is correctly implementing the OpenGL code (which I assume they are), it then falls on Nvidia to have drivers which can render OpenGL coded programs correctly through their videocards. ESPECIALLY if they explicitly state that their cards and drivers comply with the OpenGL standard. Oh, that's right, they do explicitly state that!

Grassroots is one thing; having an established publisher/developer notify them is another.

BF.C?

Ken

[Schrullenhaft]

We are a SMALL developer in the eyes of Nvidia. The bug was introduced with the first drivers of the 190 series to my knowledge and has remained. Nvidia does not pay attention to us. There isn't really a special developer channel that gets more attention from Nvidia than consumers - unless you're a big company like EA, Blizzard, AutoDesk, etc. On occasion we do get someone talking back to us, but believe us, it is rare. We were really surprised when we heard back from ATI/AMD about their OpenGL bug. Other applications were experiencing it and we were one of the companies that they contacted about it. It may have also helped that some customers gave feedback to ATI/AMD about their problems and in that manner they became aware of us (and one customer was a beta tester of their video drivers). Of course ATI/AMD has gone out and re-broken the driver again (10.2 Catalyst - from reports I've heard) shortly after fixing it in Catalyst 9.10.

The only advantage we have over consumers is specifying the exact details of the OpenGL code we are using that their drivers are having problem with. Significant consumer complaints (what little channel Nvidia actually has for that) are probably more powerful than a developer with our level of sales. Of course there's the irony - we have far fewer customers than the big game titles do.

We try to notify the large video chip companies of problems we have with their drivers, but we rarely get any feedback/response from them. If we're lucky they take note or someone else has a similar problem and it gets addressed at some point.

[CptWasp]

So, what can we do? Will the problem be there in CM Normandy too? I fear yes.

I can't revert to the old drivers, this would break other games.

[c3k]

Okay, I went to Nvidia's website and followed their links to a feedback page regarding their drivers. The address is: http://www.nvidia.com/object/driverqualityassurance.html

There are some fairly simple questions about your rig, followed by a request for what the issue is. I submitted a report. The body was as follows:

"The game Combat Mission: Shock Force (CM:SF) by Battlefront (Battlefront.com) uses OpenGL to render the graphics. The Nvidia drivers, starting with the 190 series has broken the implementation of OpenGL. The game renders perfectly with any driver prior to 190's. The issue is that any source of illumination shines with full brightness on ANY surface facing towards the source of illumination. There is no attenuation for distance, smoke, fog or other atmospheric effects. As well, the full illumination still occurs on a surface EVEN IF THERE IS AN OBSTACLE BETWEEN THE ILLUMINATION SOURCE AND THE SURFACE.

Using ANY Nvidia driver after 190 results in light penetrating solid objects for an infinite distance.

Battlefront is a small developer. They have admitted as much. They have stated that you, Nvidia, do not grant them any kind of status. You have ignored their requests for support. However, and very significantly to an enthusiast like me, ATI has specifically repaired their OpenGL code due to reports from users and small developers.

I have never purchased or used an ATI card in over 20 years of PC building. The card is only as good as the driver. Not supporting an open code like OpenGL correctly shows a level of hubris; ATI is eager to please the market. Your drivers have broken your card.

Will my next card be Nvidia or ATI?"

I'm not sure if it makes a difference. Perhaps a flood of feedback on broken OpenGL implementation may help.

Otherwise, it's time to leave the green and go to the red. I understand some of ATI's 5000 series cards are very good.

Thanks,

Ken

[Schrullenhaft]

In all fairness, Nvidia has had a much better history of support of OpenGL than ATI/AMD has had. A notable exception, in our view, has been the current lighting bug that has stuck around for awhile and has been quite annoying. It may have come about due to Nvidia's inclusion of OpenGL 3.1 and beta OpenGL 3.2 support added to the 190 series drivers.

The support we received in the recent past from ATI/AMD was surprising to us and may have been due to a driver beta tester who lobbied on our behalf. The ATI/AMD OpenGL bug was actually a fairly major one that involved a texture memory leak, or something along those lines; so many programs were probably affected.

Nvidia and ATI/AMD tend to 'leap frog' each other when it comes to hardware performance and features (and bug fixes). One will be on top and then the other, repeat... Nvidia has typically had a bit more stable driver development than ATI/AMD (though they've both had annoying bugs). ATI/AMD has tried to correct that with regularly scheduled driver updates, but their focus tends to be a bit more towards DirectX 10/11 than OpenGL. Nvidia also has issues and their focus also is more heavily towards newer DirectX versions. However they do sell their Quadro line which is highly geared towards professional visual software that often uses OpenGL. So Nvidia has had a bit more involvement in OpenGL than ATI/AMD has had.

More feedback that is "constructive" from consumers is probably always a good thing. If a significant volume of reports comes in with similar details, the developers may be more likely to look at it (or the 'marketing people' who may decide on what gets worked on). Making veiled threats may get you taken less seriously (being seen more as just a complaint).

[c3k]

All very true. However, the latest Fermi pricing estimates, coupled with the comparisons of performance/price ratios between Nvidia and ATI's latest are pushing me towards an ATI card for my next build.

Perhaps, similar to AMD and Intel, open competition and abandonment of "fanboyism" will lead to a win-win for both consumers and producers.

Thanks,

Ken

[Thin Red Line]

So, i'm lost, what do we do ? Should i buy a Nvidia or ATI now ?

Does that make a real difference ?

[Schrullenhaft]

The latest ATI/AMD driver, 10.2 Catalyst, does NOT work according to reports (I haven't checked it myself). The entire 190 series of Nvidia drivers has a lighting bug in them, but otherwise work with CMSF.

For ATI/AMD, use Catalyst 9.10 - 10.1 and it should work with CMSF. For Nvidia use a 180 series driver. The big caveat to this is if you get a video card that is too new to be supported by these drivers.

[CptWasp]

I wrote to NVidia support too.

The more we are, the more we will obtain.

[sfhand]

Just downloaded the latest omega drivers for my nvidia card and it now works flawlessly... and looks good too!

[Thin Red Line]

Which drivers are these ? In the 190 serie ? Are they solving the illubination at night bug ?

[Sergei]

Looks like he means 3rd party tweaked drivers from omegadrivers.net. But to me it looks like their latest Nvidia driver build is 169, whereas the latest official Forceware build is already 196. The flashing isn't a problem with build 186 or older, anyway.

[sfhand]

the latest WHQL release for my laptop, per nvidia, is 195.62 so I got a little dyslexic with the 169.25... forgive me.

I'm not going back to broken WHQL drivers that don't work. Heck, if I'm going to write to companies about this I'm also going to write to Microsoft for certifying drivers that don't work with OpenGL... oh wait...

EDIT

From the 195.62 release notes:

"...

The following are known compatibility issues for OpenGL applications developed under Windows XP:

Mixed GDI and OpenGL rendering does not work.

A number of applications use GDI to render UI components and object highlighting. This is not supported in the Windows Vista driver model.

Nvidia recommends converting GDI rendering to OpenGL.

..."

Not sure if this causes the problem or not.

[CptWasp]

"...

The following are known compatibility issues for OpenGL applications developed under Windows XP:

Mixed GDI and OpenGL rendering does not work.

A number of applications use GDI to render UI components and object highlighting. This is not supported in the Windows Vista driver model.

Nvidia recommends converting GDI rendering to OpenGL.

..."

Not sure if this causes the problem or not.

MMmmmm Battlefront, they are giving back the problem to you I fear

Are you using GDI rendering?

[Sergei]

I think that's Vista specific, and is not even specific to 190 series: that same passage is in 180 series Vista drivers' notes, but is missing in XP driver notes.

It has nothing to do with this.

[Schrullenhaft]

NO, to my knowledge there is no mixed GDI and OpenGL rendering. The entire game is an OpenGL rendered environment.

The issue at hand is Nvidia's inaccurate rendering of lighting effects. It worked in the 180 series drivers and they broke it in the 190 series. Nvidia also added support for OpenGL 3.1 in the 190 series along with beta support of OpenGL 3.2. However the newer versions of OpenGL support shouldn't have caused this problem. I believe that CMSF requires OpenGL 1.5 - 2.0 level support in the driver. Newer versions of OpenGL shouldn't "break" the previous version support (though some 'extensions' do get deprecated).

[CptWasp]

What about CM Normandy? Will it be affected by the same problem?

[Schrullenhaft]

Yes, it will be affected by the same problem because the engine is the same and the bug in the Nvidia drivers is still there. There isn't a problem in the OpenGL lighting routines in CMSF/CMx2. There IS a bug in the Nvidia drivers and it may take awhile for Nvidia to fix it.

[akd]

Just updated to the latest 197.xx drivers. Better performance, but effing annoying lighting problems still there.

[Piecekeeper]

196.xx drivers give the best perf. for me.

[CptWasp]

I need 197.13 at least to play Empire Total War, so I'm stuck with CMSF. I'm very biased about this problem.

It seems after some technical reading that using mixed OpenGL / GDI rendering is deprecated and not supported in Vista (and in 7 too I think).

So: does CMSF use mixed OpenGL / GDI rendering? Can we have a clear response, BF?

If the answer is yes, we can affirm that CMSF is not fully Vista compatible. It's not a driver issue, it's how it has been programmed.

I'm a big Battlefront fan, and a big CMSF supporter: but if Normandy doesn't fix this problem I will not buy it.

[Schrullenhaft]

This has been asked before - NO, CMSF does NOT use mixed GDI/OpenGL rendering. It is one 3D environment rendered entirely in OpenGL. I don't know the exact details on this, but the only place where this would be any different would be the text briefing screens, but I believe that they're either rendered entirely in GDI or OpenGL, but not both (mixed).

The issue that Nvidia users with the 190 series drivers are experiencing is a lighting bug where the light sources and their reflections are not being rendered properly. Objects are being lit (and almost acting as a 'source' of light) when they should just be reflecting light/casting shadows.

I'm not aware of any of the 'deprecations' that should affect CMSF. The 190 series offers OpenGL 3.1+ functionality, but something has gotten broken in general OpenGL 2.0+ functions.

CM:Normandy will probably have the same issues since it is built on the same engine (with a couple of tweaks for some new terrain features).

Though it probably isn't an "option" in your opinion, if you go back to the 180 series drivers (186.18, etc.) you will NOT have this lighting bug.

[CptWasp]

Ok, this is a driver issue. Thank you for the response.

I already opened a support ticket to NVidia; no answer yet.

So I'm stuck. I can't revert to an old working version of the drivers, because they were broken for other games. This is sad!