Russian Tanks Invade Georgia

[SSgt Viljuri]

(snips) A most interesting dissection of the respective forces. I was intrigued to note what was and wasn't brought in. For example, BMP-2s, rather than BMP-3s, and in another clash, the VDV was operating BMD-1s, instead of BMD-2,3, or 4. To me this suggests the fighting was done by Category B units. This, of course, presumes the Russians kept the old readiness ratings.

Absolutely not. Forces assigned were fully/mostly professional parts of the Russian military, most with tours of duty already behind them, so no conscripts at all. Units like the 76th Airborne (Pskov).

"Volunteers" are a different matter altogether.

[costard]

Ssgt

and their performance dismal, and it could not be helped with some delivery of additional Javelins alone.

Not when the problem was the efficiency of the Russian AA. But even then, what did he [the Georgian president] think they could do, drag a deeply suspicious western public into another war, this one with Russia? He really doesn't understand a democratic system. The people who fight vote. And if they vote not to fight, they don't.

[John Kettler]

SSgt Viljuri,

Your response is ambiguous. Are you saying the Russians no longer use that readiness system, you're challenging my assessment, or both? There used to be a direct relationship between category and equipment, modified with the stipulation that the cutting edge stuff wasn't in the GSFG but rather, the Western Military District.

I'm impressed that the Russians committed veteran troops to the fray, but am somewhat surprised their AFVs weren't more modern. OTOH, if what used to be called the GUSM (Strategic Deception Directorate in English) is still extant, it would be entirely reasonable not to see the latest and the greatest in use, given the expected heavy coverage in the media and all those interested eyeballs watching everything that moved.

Best to keep that card for something really important, and Georgia wasn't it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SSgt Viljuri]

SSgt Viljuri,

Your response is ambiguous. Are you saying the Russians no longer use that readiness system, you're challenging my assessment, or both? There used to be a direct relationship between category and equipment, modified with the stipulation that the cutting edge stuff wasn't in the GSFG but rather, the Western Military District.

I'm impressed that the Russians committed veteran troops to the fray, but am somewhat surprised their AFVs weren't more modern. OTOH, if what used to be called the GUSM (Strategic Deception Directorate in English) is still extant, it would be entirely reasonable not to see the latest and the greatest in use, given the expected heavy coverage in the media and all those interested eyeballs watching everything that moved.

Best to keep that card for something really important, and Georgia wasn't it.

Regards,

John Kettler

Bulk of the forces were from the South, Chechnya and so on. They are not equipped with same stuff than Leningrad military district's forces are, but are still among the best operationally tested units they have.

On paper there are hundreds of units that just don't exist any more, what ever the readiness level assigned officially.

[John Kettler]

Cease Fire Signed By Medvedev! Details here. Plan was signed two hours ago.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Medvedev-signs-truce-with-Georgia/349605/

SSgt Viljuri,

Appreciate clarification, and that is a change from how things used to be done. I always liked the Russian gallows humor of calling Cat C divisions castrirovannye, "castrated" rather than cadrirovannye, "cadre" because they were so unbelievably devoid of nearly everything. The tanks, what few there were and obsolete by normal military standards, for example, had drivers only, unless a platoon leader or higher commander "owned" it. Would also observe that I haven't been in a position to stay on top of the post SU collapse changes in the Russian Army, though I must say I am still in some shock over the unbelievable material Warfare.ru presents on what's unit's where and how much of what it has, this from a nation that once classified its soap production figure!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Guest BigDukeSixField]

I think the reason 58th army didn't have top-grade equipment (I made friends with the crew of a T-62 fer Pete's sake) is that the Russians decided they didn't need it. Why send the latest tank up against the Georgians if the Georgians have some TOW squirreled away somewhere? Besides, it's arguable BMPI is a better vehicle for city fighting.

Which reminds me, no ATGM mounted, anywhere. The Russians were not expecting their carriers to hit tanks, it seems.

I think the thing to remember is that the units the Russians shoved in were very solid on the personnel level. The peacekeepers are picked troops I would say roughly approximately with US airborne, heck, lots of the peacekeepers were wearing the airborne telniashka shirt. Those guys seemed to be top of the line.

The mech boys seemed to be solid, confident, and not too much into military rigamarole. They were very obviously field soldiers that didn't bother with much of anything that didn't have to do with, er, field soldiering. I can't say much about their tank gunnery skills one way or another, but I think these were the kind of Russians that knew their vehicles and were pretty good at keeping them running. Just a feeling, no statistics. Probably US tankers could outshoot them, but I'm not so sure the Russians would come in second in a cross-country race over a couple of hundred kilometers.

Yeah, I mean the Roki tunnel. Although it's not the only tunnel through the mountains, the Russians could have come through the tunnel by Kazbegi Mountain, if the Roki tunnel were closed.

[Blackhorse]

BigDukeSix,

It is most incredible and awesome that you are able to provide such interesting and insightful first-hand accounts. Many many thanks for that. I'm sure you have been in a bit of danger on an occasion or two.

If I may ask, what brings you into the area of operations and into such close proximity with the two Armies?

Stay safe and warmest regards,

BH

[CoFarmer]

[volfrahm]

BigDuke, how likely is it that Georgia will gain admittance to NATO? Isn't this the obvious step for the powers against Russia? What use would the Russian military have if Ukraine and Georgia are admitted into NATO? France and Germany obviously don't want them to, but how much do they really matter anyway?

[Abbott]

Like how? Condie's "If Russia doesn't stand down, we will take appropriate action" is the emptiest of threats. Define "appropriate action"? Kick them out of the G8? Haw! Exclude them from negotiations with Iran / North Korea? Never happen.

Ya know, this is just the sort of opportunity Putin has been looking for to show that the US is all talk and no action. That Russia still controls it's borders. I think he's proven his point.

"We are now harvesting the fruit of many months of hard work," said Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski at a joint press conference with U.S. Undersecretary of State John Rood in Warsaw. "Only people of ill intent should fear this agreement."- Statement by the Polish Foreign Minister.

A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons. "Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike - 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

With that irrational and meaningless statement Russia has become absurd. You know its funny, Poland has been hemming and hawing about taking action on the missiles for a long time. Now everyone gets what they wanted, except Russia, who got played. Russia gets to renegotiate borders as a consolation prize.

[costard]

Russia has signed the peace deal, with a proviso that certain security provisions be met. I see on the BBC map that there is a military base and an airbase south of Tblisi - have these been dismantled yet?

volfrahm,

obvious? for what reason would they buy into the losing side of a fait accompli? If they do buy in (and cash is far less readily available these days, and getting to be more so) what can the Western democracies say to their voting populace to convince them that it'd be money well spent?

I can't see that military supply can be maintained into Georgia without Russian agreement - at least not until Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan are all well and truly pacified.

Not likely.

[costard]

With that irrational and meaningless statement Russia has become absurd. You know its funny, Poland has been hemming and hawing about taking action on the missiles for a long time. Now everyone gets what they wanted, except Russia, who got played. Russia gets to renegotiate borders as a consolation prize.

nice one... :cool:

[Guest BigDukeSixField]

Blackhorse,

I'm a reporter and Georgia is one of the places I write about. I was at the Igoeti checkpoint yesterday and watched the Russians finally fall back a full 4 kilometers. The EU and OSCE had people there and they were really pissed that the Russians weren't going back any further. The Russian soldiers know the deal, they say no one is going to make them leave Georgia except their commanders, words don't impress tank regiments very much.

Wolfram,

Strangely enough there is a school of thought here that goes that Saakashvili triggered the war precisely so that afterwards, the West would have no choice but to let Georgia into NATO. We'll see, but my opinion even Saakashvili isn't nuts enough to trade Russian occupation of about 1/3 of his country (if you count Abkhazia and Ossetia) for a ticket into NATO. Me, I think it's more likely Saakashvili just thought his US-trained army would make short work of the Ossetians and the Russian peacekeepers, and like I said that kind of logic is stupid, but not beyond Saakashvili. Only a fool assumes you can dig motivated Russian infantry out of their holes with some area artillery barrages, but basically, this is what I think Saakashvili did.

He has ofcourse a point that before the war the Ossetians were picking fights and killing Georgians with sniping and mortars, but nasty as it is that's to my mind not justification for a suicidal attack directly onto Russian troops.

I think that behind the scenes alot of the Western leaders are pretty pissed at Saakashvili, Merkel called him "a bit reckless" yesterday. So whether Georgia winds up in NATO pretty much depends on how serious the West is about backing up a guy, that they pretty much all think picked a fight with Russia at the wrong place and time. On the one hand they don't like little countries forcing them into a conflict with Russia, but on the other hand if they don't back up Georgia then they look like dwebes.

They can talk about supporting democracy all they want, but the truth is going to be visible in the money. Big Western money into Georgia = Georgia gets into NATO soon. Little Western money into Georgia = Georgia better learn Russian fast.

I think the US government right now just might be a little more inclined to confront the Russians than might otherwise be expected, as the main US military tool for the region is the Navy, which is not nearly as overtaxed as the Army, and also could use the precedent of conducting real operations in the Black Sea, all they've done so far is trained. Bush on Wednesday said he was sending the US Navy to give Georgia "humanitarian aid", and there's little way to do that with Russia's Black Sea fleet enforcing an effective blockade of Georgia's ports.

So me, I'm wondering when the US Navy is going to show up, it would be pretty interesting to see how how tough the Russians talk when they've got the American swabbies and all their super-duper computerized boats and sensors and sattelites to think about.

The Russian army has been fairly impressive from a ground force competence POV, but they're not fooling any one about their technical level at sea or in the air. When they were bombing Georgia for the first time the Russians used laser-guided bombs in combat - that's Vietnam technology. I doubt the Russians could move an airplane or a ship without the Americans knowing about it, and the Russians know that too.

So since it's obvious the US Navy isn't going to fire on the Russians, and vice versa, and the Americans have this huge tech edge, I'm really curious to find out what will happen when the US missile frigate squadron or whatever it is shows up off Georgia's coast...unless of course Bush was lying, and said he going to send the navy when in fact he has no intention of doing it.

So I bet the Russians are waiting with great interest on that one as well.

I bet there is some one reading this forums that could provide input, you out there?

[Boris London]

Blackhorse,

Strangely enough there is a school of thought here that goes that Saakashvili triggered the war precisely so that afterwards, the West would have no choice but to let Georgia into NATO. We'll see, but my opinion even Saakashvili isn't nuts enough to trade Russian occupation of about 1/3 of his country (if you count Abkhazia and Ossetia) for a ticket into NATO. Me, I think it's more likely Saakashvili just thought his US-trained army would make short work of the Ossetians and the Russian peacekeepers, and like I said that kind of logic is stupid, but not beyond Saakashvili. Only a fool assumes you can dig motivated Russian infantry out of their holes with some area artillery barrages, but basically, this is what I think Saakashvili did.

re?

excellent insider posting Bigduke

a few thoughts..

if the airstrike on the tunnel had succeeded would the "plan" have worked or at least have had a chance

or was te georgian army incapable of fulfilling any mission?

could the russians have responded with a black sea coast landing and airborne troops alone or was the mech-inf division the big stick needed to break georgian resistance?

what level of knowledge/backing/sanction did the US give/have beforehand?

there seems some confusion on that point

Boris

london

[CoFarmer]

Saakashvili eats own necktie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBh9D2WIGsE

[Guest BigDukeSixField]

Boris,

Had the airstrike against the Roki tunnel succeeded, the Russians still could have brought in whatever they felt like by sea. Or, they could have pushed through another tunnel to the east, near Mount Kazbegi, which would have been outside Ossetia, but as we have seen the Russians are not too shy about expanding conflict areas.

The amazing thing to me is that the Georgians had a 5-plane air force, Su-25, and they lost two of them attempting to hit the tunnel mouth. Russian ADA expected them, apparently. So all in all the moment the Russians intervened the Georgians were deep in it, and for the life of me I can't figure out how the Georgians figured the Russians wouldn't intervene.

The Georgian army is/was an infantry artillery force with some tanks, but not much combined arms training. They had reasonable infantry tactics training and probably could have done fine clearing villages against other infantry. But as noted they had next to no AT capacity, and again going to war with Russia without AT capacity is like going to war with the US with no way to deal with US air. The more I think about it the more amazed I am the Georgians did it, what could they have been thinking?

There are differing rumors on what the US did or did not tell the Georgians before the attack. Some Georgians are saying the US gave satellite intelligence showing the Georgians the Russians were concentrating forces vs. Ossetia, but no confirm on that. If they did then it's still not conclusive, does that mean the Georgians decided to launch a pre-emptive strike before the Russians attacked themselves, or did they just ignore US advice?

There is plenty of confusion as the Georgian government spin is "we had to do this because otherwise we would be bowing down before the Russians." Sounds good, except that they are bowing down before the Russians right now.

excellent insider posting Bigduke

a few thoughts..

if the airstrike on the tunnel had succeeded would the "plan" have worked or at least have had a chance

or was te georgian army incapable of fulfilling any mission?

could the russians have responded with a black sea coast landing and airborne troops alone or was the mech-inf division the big stick needed to break georgian resistance?

what level of knowledge/backing/sanction did the US give/have beforehand?

there seems some confusion on that point

Boris

london

[Boris London]

The more I think about it the more amazed I am the Georgians did it, what could they have been thinking?

pretty much what most of us thought from the start over at dosomefink

cheers

send the pix if you can. email address in your PM box.

Boris

London

[Boris London]

http://dosomefink.com/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_929.jpg

photo taken by Bigduke6 showing Russian squadie dress code or lack off

The photographer requests you credit him if you wish to post any of these pictures elsewhere, for more information mail stefankorshak@gmail.com.

have a bunch will post more at Domesomefink image gallery when i get a free hour tonight.

cheers bigduke

photo massive on screen need to resize.. view by visiting link

Boris

London

[easy-v]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2570754/Georgia-conflict-How-a-flat-tyre-took-the-Caucasus-to-war.html

Interesting article on the start of this whole disaster:

It also hints at a ground operation to attack the Kurta bridge, in conjunction with the Roki tunnel air attack.

A flat tyre on a Russian diplomatic car triggered the slide to war in Georgia after it forced the cancellation of key peace talks the day before fighting erupted, The Sunday Telegraph has learned.

Trouble had been brewing in the disputed South Ossetian region for weeks as Moscow-backed militias skirmished with Georgian troops, yet Russian-brokered negotiations between the Georgian government and the separatists had continued.

But the first substantial face-to-face talks on August 7 fell through after a farcical chain of events in which the top Russian diplomat claimed he was unable to attend the meeting in South Ossetia because his car tyre had run flat.

Refusing to take his excuse at face value, the Georgian delegation then assumed they were being lured into a trap, and began the shelling that invited the Russian invasion.

Details of how such a mundane incident sparked the crisis that now threatens to redraw global East-West relations emerged during an interview given to The Sunday Telegraph last week by Timur Yakobashvili, Georgia's chief negotiator. He recalled how on August 7, he traveled to the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, for what he hoped would be a ground breaking round-the-table meeting. Waiting for him was a Russian General, Marat Kulakhmetov - but there was no sign of his Russian diplomatic counterpart, Yuri Popov, who was supposed to be chairing the talks, nor were any South Ossetian officials present.

"It was disturbing atmosphere," recalled Mr Yakobashvili. "Two days before, the South Ossetians had started using Russian positions to shoot at our troops. But we decided to make the trip anyway because a direct meeting would have been a breakthrough."

Asked as to whereabouts of the rest of the delegation, General Kulakhmetov was polite but blunt. He held up his phone to the Georgian negotiator's ear to demonstrate that the South Ossetian delegate had turned his mobile off.

A second mobile phone call to Yuri Popov, the Russian diplomat, chairman of the talks, added an element of the ridiculous to the impasse. "I called and spoke to Popov and he said he could not get to the office because his car had a flat tyre," said Mr Yakobashvili. "This was preposterous. I said the delegation must have more cars. He said there is another car but its tyre is flat too. At this point I knew it was a trap and I was very angry."

But Gen Kulakhmetov was not finished. "He had a message for me," said Mr Yakobashvili. "He said he could not control the South Ossetians while there was Georgian military on the boundary. He said we must declare a unilateral ceasefire before the Russians could push them back."

Before Mr Yakobashvili left the South Ossetian capital, Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili was preparing to make a ceasefire declaration on national television.

But as he came off air, he was handed a folder containing what the Georgians claim were US-provided satellite photos of a column of Russian armour advancing towards the Roki tunnel, the passageway that links South Ossetia to Russia.

In the volatile and paranoid world of Caucasian politics, there was only one way in which such photos would be interpreted. The Georgian government concluded Russia had devised a premeditated exercise to humiliate its envoy during his trip to Tskhinvali, and in the heat of the moment, the flat tyre was interpreted as a contemptuous first move for a well-planned invasion. The Georgians also realised that they had only one opportunity to stop the Russian column - at the Kurta bridge, which straddles a high ravine south of the tunnel.

"This was a heavy armoured Russian column, moving slowly, on very rugged terrain," said Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, who is adamant that the Russians had intended an ambush. "Think about how many hours of preparation, assembly, then marching, it would take for that column, moving at that speed on rugged terrain to be at the Kurta bridge at six in the morning. If that isn't a premeditated invasion, I don't know what is."

Georgia also calculated that by dawn the following the day, the world's attention would be focused on Beijing for the opening of the Olympic Games. Its US-trained Georgian army therefore formed an audacious plan to sabotage the bridge more than 100 miles behind enemy lines. The operation, however, was a only a partial success. The bridge was damaged and almost one dozen Russian vehicles were blown up, but the Russians then regrouped and repulsed the Georgians.

From a trival beginnings, war had ignited in the tiny mountainous statelet.

Georgia decided to establish a defensive line north of Tskinvali, the self-declared capital of South Ossetia. By midnight shelling on both sides was intense. Russia's version of events has it that the Georgians were already on the move while Mr Yakobashvili met the Russian general. "They moved their forces into positions on high ground around Tskinvali," a Russian official claimed. "It's very simple: The Georgians decided to take South Ossetia by force. They thought we'd whine like over Kosovo, but our response was very tough."

[Boris London]

images from bigduke6 at dosomefink.com

The photographer requests you credit him if you wish to post any of these pictures elsewhere, for more information mail stefankorshak@gmail.com.

Boris

London

[Boris London]

images from bigduke6 posted at dosomefink.com image gallery

The photographer requests you credit him if you wish to post any of these pictures elsewhere, for more information mail stefankorshak@gmail.com.

Boris

London

[Stalins Organ]

The soldiers above with white cloth around one arm and on the tank without ERA are Sth Ossetians or other irregulars - the white cloth is the "field sign" for them.

They're the ones now being reported as doign the ethnic clensing of Georgian villages in Sth Ossetia.

[Michael Emrys]

Those are some pretty serious-looking buggers. I'd want to be sure all my ducks were in a row before I went and picked a fight with them.

Michael

[Guest BigDukeSixField]

SO,

On the white cloth I saw both Ossetians and Russian regular army wearing it. I talked a long time with that T-62 crew and I'm personally convinced they were a standard batch of Ivans. I'd lay money on it, there wasn't an "ethnic Caucasian" among them, they all had regional Russian accents. And some of the guys wearing white armbands look like Genghiz Khan, no way those were Ossetians. Although looking at the photographs it seems like the peacekeepers weren't wearing white armbands.

So my guess is, the white armband was an IFF thing the 17th Mech ordered.

That T-62 crew was a pretty good bunch of guys BTW, NATO soldiers usually are not nearly that friendly. The sort of bald guy with the big nose turned out to be a Spartak Moscow fan, and when I ribbed him that their old enemies Dynamo Kyiv had just stomped them 4-1, he thought it was pretty funny that he had invaded Georgia only to find a Dynamo Kyiv fan.

Boris,

Very professional job, real slick.

Easy-color,

That Telegraph story is of course entertaining, but it overlooks the issue of how it would also have taken the Georgians time to put together an infantry/artillery attack on Tsvinkhali. Trucks, troops, shells, fire planning, phase lines, OPs. I find it questionable that the Georgian army could or would move from its bases to the field and initiate an offensive like that in 24-48 hours.

This is not to defend the Russians, they are of course being absolutely classic Russians, they're happiest when they're driving their tanks around some one else's country.

But I think both sides were preparing for war this time. The difference between the Georgians and the Russians as I see it is, the Russians put together a realistic plan to get the results they wanted, and the Georgians had a hope-based plan.

[John Kettler]

Have just posted a bunch of highly pertinent material in the CMSF Breaking News (Red on Red) thread. Call it blockbuster, if true. Am especially interested in feedback from BigDukeSixField. See last two pages here.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82992

Regards,

John Kettler