Infantry

[Dark_au]

Missiles don't get faster over time unless they are multistage ( which no-one has done yet to my knowledge). A missile burns out all its fuel in a very short time IRL and then relies on momentum and sometimes a sustainer motor to reach its target. The TOW for example burns all its fuel in the first 1.5 seconds of its 22second mission time.

However I agree that the infantry are a little weak. If you look at the current world arsenal there are plenty of things that could have an analogie within the DT universe. I was Hoping the 20mm would be more of a single shot AMR ( Anti Materiel Rifle) like the M-82 light barrett or the 20mm version (or even maybe like the WW2 finnish / soviet Lahti 20mm AT rifle). In the rifle squad maybe one of the guys could have a 12 shot AT grenade launcher like the MM1 or the 6 shot 6G30 soviet equivalent.

To me the most usefull role the inf could have now is in MP with a human player they would make great scouts / recon for other humans.

[poesel]

Umm, missiles do get faster over time. The normal rocket starts at speed zero and then, well, accelerates for a while.

Even the rate of acceleration rises since more fuel is burnt the rocket gets lighter and lighter but the propulsion is the same force. This is offset by aerodynamical forces of course.

This may be calculated by the leisure of the reader...

[Neutrino 123]

You are correct, BUT if the rocket runs out of fuel before it hits the target, then it will be slowing down before it hits the target. Most rockets only have enough fuel for a short burst of acceleration before they start slowing down.

Also, I just had a couple battles in which I used infantry very effectively. In one, I moved them through water, killing several turrets and sensors. Then I popped up near the enemy flag and killed two Thors. This softened up the area enough for me to assault with a fast vehicle. In the other, my infantry were able to destroy a couple light vehicles on a road and the remnants of an enemy infantry squad before I extracted them.

[Dark_au]

right but the acceleration / thrust phase of a current ATGM / ATM / RPG is incredibly short. After that it is just another ballistic object with little wings. The Tow glides for around 20 seconds for a thrust of 1.5 seconds was what I was saying. The difference is that an ATGM uses a shaped charge warhead and isn't relying on the kinetic energy. There has been talk of Hypervelocity missiles and Sheaf missiles. They still only have a very short but incredibly powerfull thrust phase.

[bboyle]

Originally posted by Neutrino 123:

You are correct, BUT if the rocket runs out of fuel before it hits the target, then it will be slowing down before it hits the target. Most rockets only have enough fuel for a short burst of acceleration before they start slowing down.

Also, I just had a couple battles in which I used infantry very effectively. In one, I moved them through water, killing several turrets and sensors. Then I popped up near the enemy flag and killed two Thors. This softened up the area enough for me to assault with a fast vehicle. In the other, my infantry were able to destroy a couple light vehicles on a road and the remnants of an enemy infantry squad before I extracted them.

Once I figured infantry out a bit I also had some success. Hiding underwater near a bridge kicked butt and on the very mountainous snow map I had a field day with a hmg squad. The key is cover and the ability to jump back into terrain that is both inaccessible and out of site of the vehicle that wants to chew you up. The basic problem with infantry right now is that the terrains are typically very favorable to tank warfare.

[dan/california]

Look up the new missile that Lockheed is developing for the army.

Link is here,

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/ckem.html

[yurch]

My ion specialists are occasionally blowing themselves up.

I'm starting to think the bots are conspiring against me.

[Jalinth]

I've had the same problem. I've been happily sniping turrets and Jammers and the BOOM

SirJalinth has TEAMKILLED SirJalinth's Specialist with BEAM WEAPON.

I think the Infantry Ion guns need some better heatsinks...

[aittam]

yeah got some + and - here too and btw I couldn't pick up the flag, i was thinking to nicely hop back home but the stupid sphere didn't stick to my team

[Dark_au]

"The Flag" is a bit of an arbitary concept anyway so why shouldn't infantry pick it up. If nessecary require that it takes 4 men to pick it up.

[aittam]

exactly that's why i was surprised i cound't carry it

[MilitiaJim]

But the infantry can kick the flag ball along. Very slowly but invisible to sensors. =D

[MikeyD]

Wow. Those infantry showed up in record time!

Whenever a game company says "Updates/expansions to come" my first thought is "...yeh, eventually". The DropTeam guys seem to have set a land speed record for getting infantry into the game. A question - how does the infantry fare when the AI handles them when playing against the machine? meat-on-the-table or unstoppable supermen?

With infantry included I'm almost weeping that my ancient system won't run Drop Team. Getting pretty near time to pull out the Gold Card.

[ClaytoniousRex]

I killed a Thor with the 10mm gun. It doesn't penetrate the back hull armor, but it does get the back turret armor for some reason... [smile]

No longer in the upcoming 1.1.1 release.

there is a bug with infantry and tall buildings. If you jump jet to them in certain places (not the bottom), you instantly teleport to the top of the building, even if it is very tall...

Fixed for 1.1.1.

I'm killing Thor turrets from the front with 120mm HE. Am I supposed to be able to do that?

No, you're not. Fixed for 1.1.1.

- display number of members (left) in the squad (hmm some image from Aliens springs into mind [smile] )

- give these guys names

- please let us crawl - I want to be sneaky and just poke over that ridge not wander there in full sight and _then_ hide. Crawl is very slow of course

All on the way, but after 1.1.1.

I think it's high time the AI was a little more discriminating

Agreed. Working on it now.

The galaxy doesn't reload the second weapon.

Fixed for 1.1.1.

The walking animation makes them look like they have S**t themselves.

Which is indescribably horrible in tight fitting powered armor as we all know.

If in doubt they should go prone

Agreed. Will probably make it into 1.1.1.

Jump jets have too little juice in them and its vectored too downward. It should be slightly vectorable so you can do low skimming hops.

You can do skimming hops and even nap of Earth flight with practice. They're vectorable, too, using the forward and back keys and turning while in flight. We're reluctant to give them any more juice. It's quite understandable that as an infantry player we would all like more, but then of course we would like more of everthing. They have really excellent mobility already and they do need some restrictions.

I think they're a little too concerned with staying in formation.

This is the root of many of yllamana's complaints, too. We're looking at ways to make them more flexible about formation vs. risk of fire and detection. It would be easy to make them frustratingly difficult to get BACK into formation, of course, so we're trying for a better balance without going too far. A couple of essential points to remember, though:

</font>

• When deployed for a fight, use ALT-P to tell your squaddies to hold position. Now you can turn and shoot and fight without worry of them moving to keep formation. Hit ALT-P again when you're ready to actually have them move. Use the key A LOT to stay in control.</font>
• Use the "look" keys to look around instead of aimining in a different direction. By default the look keys are on the numpad. So you can look left, right, and back, without turning your marines just to do quick scanning.</font>

To really see infantry shine, one probably needs to wait for the city map or the mountain map.

Terrain is essential. Deploying in sneaky cover is what it's all about and on many of the current scenarios this is hard to do. Soon they'll be able to enter buildings which will help a lot, too.

you need to be able to walk at diagonals

Agreed. Hopefully will make it in for 1.1.1.

can infantry please have a rangefinder on their scope?

What are you looking for here?

infantry don't appear able to return the flag at all. Is this intentional?

Yes.

can they please not be worth 1 point per man?

Yes, along with the more general scoring cleanup which will come after 1.1.1.

The visibility does seem to work, but the bots, like with jammed items, aren't really limited to field of view concerns.

Right. Enhancing the spotting behavior of bots to be more realistically fuzzy is in progress.

Infantry just don't seem all that useful. They're reasonably survivable against long-range fire, but they can't damage anything, can't interact with the flag, move slower than Thor (unless you activate the kill-me jets) and die horribly to the lighter AFVs from far outside their effective weapons range.

Actually, our main concern has been that infantry are over-powered. I might really agree with you about the kill-me jets, though. What do you all generally think about leaving infantry undetected, even while the jets are on?

It's very difficult to think of a role for infantry to fulfill while working alone. When working in concert with other squads and especially with other AFV's they're incredibly potent and when used correctly, the victim player won't have any real counter. For example, here is a video of a single squad taking down 3 Thors by working in concert with friendly AFV's:

Video

Attacking those tanks without the friendly AFV's keeping them pinned would have been simply suicidal. Also, attacking those tanks without the infantry getting in there to decide the stalemate would have been suicidal for the friendly AFV's.

The ion does an amazing 2 ablation per shot (that's 64 shots to kill a thor rear), so the same problem applies.

Yes, but 3 prone ion squads in the foliage at a distance of 6 kilometers can cook that Thor in 30 seconds while it reaches out with widely spread HE rounds or coaxial fire at distant muzzle flashes (he can't see the troops from there). This is OK, but let a friendly AFV also engage that Thor while its front armor is being depleted. Now you only have to wait a few seconds for that front armor to weaken a bit.

But a single ion squad engaging a distant Thor on its own? Yes, you're right - this is futile. Do you *want* a single squad of any type of light infantry to automatically (or even usually) be a match for any AFV on the field at any range? I know that's not what you're saying you want here, Yurch, but it's what a lot of us are thinking when we first take our squad out for a spin. Very much like the few first times most of played DropTeam and found ourselves being killed repeatedly in mysterious ways - until we figured out how to use the different AFV's appropriately.

What we need is crazy kilted bastards running and screaming at the tanks with plasma flamethrowers.

Horns on helmets first, Yurch. Stay focused!

Perhaps the Paladin can be equipped with extra rounds for them?

That's a great idea.

I think the Infantry Ion guns need some better heatsinks...

LOL. Ion squad self destruction is fixed for 1.1.1.

[bboyle]

My vote would be to not have jumping infantry show up on radar until they hit a certain height and/or burn for a certain period of time.

[Jalinth]

First, a big thanks to ClaytoniousRex! Information updates like that do WONDERS to make people feel better. The activity of the Devs on the forums was a big thing in me deciding to shell out the cash for the game.

My vote would be to not have jumping infantry show up on radar until they hit a certain height and/or burn for a certain period of time.

I like that. I think infantry should show up on sensors if they make a big enough signature, but a quick burst should get over looked.

quote:can infantry please have a rangefinder on their scope?

What are you looking for here?

I think he wants the same thing I want. When you zoom in with a vehicle, there is a little box that gives such fun data as your speed and range to target. With infantry, all you get is a decent 'goggle' effect and some to loud deep breathing.

Another suggestion is to allow infantry to Zoom in, at least one level. Doesn't need to be much, just enough to be like I was using a low powered scope or binoculars. Perhaps an extra level with the Ion Gun, but that might be to much, as only the Thor can zoom in that much.

[yurch]

Originally posted by ClaytoniousRex:

Yes, but 3 prone ion squads in the foliage at a distance of 6 kilometers can cook that Thor in 30 seconds while it reaches out with widely spread HE rounds or coaxial fire at distant muzzle flashes (he can't see the troops from there). This is OK, but let a friendly AFV also engage that Thor while its front armor is being depleted. Now you only have to wait a few seconds for that front armor to weaken a bit.

Obviously, but this is me arguing for them to be seen as an anti-infantry unit.

While we're on the subject, however, I'd like to point out that right now that game players must occupy the squads. 3 infantry squads and an AFV means four players/bots versus one, which is total overkill for a 'fair' scenario no matter what entity the players are using. An AFV with an ion at 6km is still highly survivable - this isn't a role just infantry perform, rather one of the ion.

Turrets, while usually quite useless, have the distinct ability to fill the gaps 8 players-per-team can't fill. I'm wondering if there can't be a totally automated mode or type of infantry. "Turret" infantry, if you will.

I know that's not what you're saying you want here, Yurch

It certainly isn't. I'm downright terrified of ions. Being a light ion, however, that specialist seems to make best use of his time(and squadmates) making a mess of opposing infantry - especially in a situation where support isn't availible. Sitting up on a hill firing several hundred beams at meandering tanks would eventually melt my brain, that is, if an enemy thor didn't do it first with thier own ion...

Horns on helmets first, Yurch. Stay focused!

I wouldn't have a flamethrower team any other way. The hard part is devising a short-range weapon type that doesn't completely devour opposing vehicles.

LOL. Ion squad self destruction is fixed for 1.1.1.

Just for the record, I've seen this with paladins and apollos too.

[Jalinth]

Just watched the movie, and it's great. That is precisely how I've managed to get some success with infantry. Distract the enemy then ram an AT grenade into his hull. I've not managed to get 3 Thors at once, but... give me time.

It's also a good example of the only way I've really been killed by infantry in an AFV. Got distracted by another AFV and then BOOM.

As for the Light Ions, the best use I've found so far is sniping Turrets, Sensors, and Sensor Jammers. You can be a nice distance away, are hard to spot, and can often clear an area without taking much, if any fire.

Sending a team of infantry into the back of the enemy base, underwater, then rising out of the waves to cut a path for the armour is also rather nice.

[ July 25, 2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: Jalinth ]

[poesel]

I'd vote for infantry on jets should show up on the tacmap when in LOS. For all other cases they should be invisible.

Saw the video. Nice action. Although any human player had mowed you down with the coax at the latest after the first Thor.

Hmm, I see pictures of infantry sitting on a Thor to protect him from other infantry... nice

Oh, and that description from the forum overview is a bit outdated:

DropTeam

Discussion area for the upcoming multiplayer real-time tactical simulation of mechanized armored ground combat in the far future.

'upcoming'

[Dark_au]

Thanks for the info Clay.

My vote would be for making them show up as Poesel Says when they are in LOS and at a certain height. I then also think they should be susceptible to AAD.

One idea I had to make the infantry a lot more useful would be to give them an FO mode (forward Observer). Whereby they can mark a target, with a laser range finder or some such and have that info show up on the map as a red diamond (rather than a red dot). Maybe even give them 0.1 of a point for each target they ID like this.

[aittam]

AAD can't spot infantry too slow, it'd spent all the time killing birds in the jungle/forest map

to see the infantry when you have LOS: i'm debated yes and no, the infantry role is to act as a terrible nuisance for AFV so if the driver doesn't have to look around continuosly.......... on the other end bots will spot them so......

defintly no detectability during low jumps and btw how come jumps are the same even if gravity is different?

[Hub]

[ October 21, 2006, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Hub ]

[Caseck]

Gotta' love the infantry!

My only big issue thus far, is that all infantry should be able to seize buildings! Because, well... They're INFANTRY! And no command unit to call for fire is a problem...

I know it's in the works somewhere, so I'm not worried: It will be nice when Infantry can actually occupy buildings!

All these guys so far, seem to be LIGHT infantry...

Very slow on the ground. Nice and sneaky though. Curious what the plan is for HEAVY (assault) infantry?

Curious what sort of different squads are in the works! ATGM teams? Scout/Recon teams to call for fire?

And I still hate the Ion weapons done in millimeters instead of output megawatts!

I don't believe in jumping, so I'm happy with infantry being automatically spotted whenever the jets are firing. I haven't actually shot at a squad in the air, so I don't know how hard they are to hit.

You gotta' be careful with how you use the jets!

[yllamana]

Originally posted by ClaytoniousRex:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />can infantry please have a rangefinder on their scope?

What are you looking for here?</font>

[yurch]

Originally posted by yllamana:

The tanks have a rangefinder display in the lower left corner of the screen in the gunner view. I just really notice it missing for infantry because I'm not so used to judging the ranges for their weapons.

For now, you can just click manual ranging and use that.

Side-note: I noticed earlier that the Shrike had a machine gun on it. I kinda don't think it should, as it looks a bit out of place on the tiny Shrike (good on the Paladin ATGM though), but anyway.

Machineguns are such a (relatively) small piece of hardware I don't see why every vehicle (ion carriers, 76mm, mortar units) shouldn't be carrying at least one. In the case of the paladin and shrike I think a smaller forward turret would make more sense for aesthetics than sticking it on top of the ATGM.

I'm for keeping the infantry pipper as it is. It doesn't really show up all that often or for long, and if you miss it, sucks to be you. Players are far less likely to pick it up than bots. Often it's just a warning that there is infantry out there somewhere, but a dot is just a dot.

I think that pipper is subject to jamming, too.