One Tough Cookie

[MikeyD]

For those of you who don't subscribe to the small Canadian armor journal AFV News, in their latest issue (Vol.40 No.2) theres a photo article showing the effects of a 105mm APFSDS tungsten round (Hungarian-made NP105A2) on a Czech manufactured T72 M1. Hit three times in the turret in the area of the 'chernozyom' composite armor, and five times on the bow. NONE of the rounds penetrated! Wow! No word in the article on the firing range. A sixth experimental long rod 105mm round did finally penetrate the bow. A Carl Gustav was aimed at the side fuel pannier and though it blew the thing clean off the spilled diesel fuel wasn't ignited.

Cool pictures too. T72s seem tougher than their Western press implies!

[Glider]

I still recall the furore among wargamers when patches for the Steel Panthers 2 game which included latest data on T-72 and T-80 armour were released. Suddenly it turned out that the standard 105mm tank gun was incapable of punching through the frontal armour of either T-80 or improved versions of T-72.

I can tell you that after that little change many of the previously made and very popular NATO/Warsaw Pact scenarios lost much of their appeal

[Hub]

[ July 11, 2005, 05:00 AM: Message edited by: Hub ]

[flamingknives]

I did wonder why the US stuck with the 105 while the British, German and Soviet designers had gone for 120mm+.

I rather suspect that a DU 105 may fare better.

[Pzman]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Cool pictures too. T72s seem tougher than their Western press implies!

Might have something to do with cheap export T72s in Iraq?

[MikeyD]

I believe that test T72 was an export (Czech) vehicle - or at least not the special souped-up Soviet type (if such a type existed). Most tales of T72 killls in Kuwait seem to involve Abrams. Tales of Marine M60s killing tanks seem to involve T55s.

[Glider]

I think that Czechs are producing quite good upgraded T-72s of their own.

[blue division]

I believe the 120mm DU round was introduced by NATO specifically to deal with the T72 threat. A gauranteed kill with every hit.

But even without the DU, a modern 120mm round hits with such kinetic energy that any thing it hits tends to disintegrate. So any vehicle it hits would be a 'kill' - I guess the DU just ensures that the crew are killed, and the vehicle a write-off.

[flamingknives]

Presumably the same would go for a 125mm main gun round.

[Glider]

Actually, it seems that the 125mm round has inferior ballistics & penetration, not surprising since the gun was first used in the T-64 tank.

The new German 120mm/L55 gun (as opposed to the standard Western 120mm/L44) looks like a real killer.

[flamingknives]

I was thinking more in terms of KE delivered to the target. It doesn't necessarily have to get past the armour to render the target combat ineffective

[Sequoia]

All wargamers ought to know who James Dunnigan is. Here's his opinion of the T-72:

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20054172327.asp

[flamingknives]

I was reading that the other day. I like how the performance of poorly crewed, poorly used, second rate export models is fair for the whole series. With modern ammunition and decent crews, I think that the T-72 would have a more impressive record.

[Nidan1]

Originally posted by Sequoia:

All wargamers ought to know who James Dunnigan is. Here's his opinion of the T-72:

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20054172327.asp

This is not James Dunnigan's opinion, but the opinion of someone who wrote an article quoted on Dunnigan's website.

However similar things have been said about the T-72 by others.

[MikeyD]

I can't help think that if the Pentagon had designed and fielded the T72 there would be never-ending articles about its small silhou and autoloader, and any shortcoming in the design would be dealt with by 'redefining' its mission to fit.

[flamingknives]

The relationship between the T72 and the M1 strikes me as being similar to that between the T34 and the M4. The T34/T72 are the less advanced, but were also introduced 6 years earlier than the US Models.

[Glider]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The relationship between the T72 and the M1 strikes me as being similar to that between the T34 and the M4. The T34/T72 are the less advanced, but were also introduced 6 years earlier than the US Models.

In fact I think you can take T-64 as the first T-72 model. IIRC, T-64 was more advanced than first T-72 models but was never exported outside USSR.

[flamingknives]

Possibly, but that would spoil my analogy.

[MikeyD]

I recall when the T64 first showed up in (then) East Germany a LOT of NATO equipment suddenly became obsolete. Good bye Jpz Kanone, to name one!

[Glider]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I recall when the T64 first showed up in (then) East Germany a LOT of NATO equipment suddenly became obsolete. Good bye Jpz Kanone, to name one!

Yeah, around 1964 Steel Panthers East-West battles (my main source of info ) suddenly became lopsided... on one side you had the then new M60A2 with those pathetic Shillelagh missiles and on the other you had the T-64, fast, armed with that deadly 125mm gun and well armoured.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

The relationship between the T72 and the M1 strikes me as being similar to that between the T34 and the M4. The T34/T72 are the less advanced, but were also introduced 6 years earlier than the US Models.

i think T-72 vs M1 is usually seen pretty much like T-34/76 vs Tiger. the problem of course is that originally M1 had a 105mm gun that couldn't punch thru T-72's armor at longer ranges. it was only after modernizations that M1 could get an upper hand over unmodernized T-72s. even then it wasn't like the T-34/76 vs Tiger situation of WW2, and a modernized T-72 should offer a good match still today.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Glider:

In fact I think you can take T-64 as the first T-72 model. IIRC, T-64 was more advanced than first T-72 models but was never exported outside USSR.

yes, T-64 was more advanced and came to service before T-72.

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I recall when the T64 first showed up in (then) East Germany a LOT of NATO equipment suddenly became obsolete. Good bye Jpz Kanone, to name one!

did T-64s ever appear outside USSR?

[MikeyD]

If I remember a couple old articles correctly (and I may not), the first good look we got at the T64 was NATO surveillance photos of Soviet units stationed in East Germany. I believe the T64 made it out of (present day) Russia proper but definitely stayed in 'Soviet' hands. Not even their Warsaw Pact allies got to play with them.

As to 'more advanced', was the T64 advanced in actual warfighting ability? Or was the T72 just simplified from a production standpoint for cheaper manufacture?

[flamingknives]

Interestingly, the T90 is a heavily modified T72.

[Matt H]

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