Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Max BrauHaus:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> What about us scrubs with no Excel, or We have the Excel Viewer, but no printer?

I tested the Auto Parameters quickly with the Excel Viewer and had no luck with them updating. Apparently the formulas are converted to the last value they were saved in, making the Auto Parameter sheet pretty much useless. Can anyone else verify?

</font>

[Ichthys]

quote: It should always be set at 'Axis +200%'. Here is why...

This I am not sure of, because in December, the Allies should have the advantage in numbers, and you can only select one Handicap value either in favor of the Allies or Axis.

Anyway, Biltong's Rule say that if you don't get enough points in one category to purchase what was allocated, ... tough, that's war!

I agree that there are times when the allies should have an advantage in numbers, but the handicap setting doesn't have to be the way it is done. I can select a 1000 pt battle with a Allies +25% setting and be forced to live with the sometimes excessive category restrictions, or I can select a 1250 pt battle but only purchase the 1000 pts of stuff I rolled up. In the second case I'm not penalized twice, once for having rolled a 25% handicap and again for not even being able to purchase all the units that were assigned to me!

Anyway, I've seen enough people posting how they use their modified rules to get the equipment that the think they need to think my "Axis +200%" tip might be useful to many players.

-Andy

[Ichthys]

Originally posted by 86smopuim:

What about us scrubs with no Excel, or We have the Excel Viewer, but no printer?

Is there anybody else like me out there?

If so, I may do something about it.

I'm working on a program, so far it has all the tables through the Allied-parameters, but the user-interface is virtually non-existant (or maybe it's a user-inteface only a programmer could love ). In addition to parameters, I'm hoping it will eventually be able to track units' experience , favor, and automate replacements -- but that sort of functionality is a long way off.

-Andy

[86smopuim]

Originally posted by Mare Ichthys:

I'm working on a program, so far it has all the tables through the Allied-parameters..[/QB]

Sweet!

[SuperSulo]

Max's "Auto Rules" new version v1.2 is up at my "site", some minor fixes, I believe.

Oh, maybe a link for those who don't want to hit the back button:

SuperSulo's

[SuperSulo]

Mare Ichthys, believe me, I've whined about the casualties before... As it is now, I simply don't use them. Not only does it add to the "outgunning" issue, you can also lose half your core force with just a roll of a die. I prefer to do that on the battlefield.

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Mare Ichthys, believe me, I've whined about the casualties before... As it is now, I simply don't use them. Not only does it add to the "outgunning" issue, you can also lose half your core force with just a roll of a die. I prefer to do that on the battlefield.

Check yer mail Super

Patience me maties - the beginning is in sight

[ November 30, 2002, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

[QOUTE]....Anyway, I've seen enough people posting how they use their modified rules to get the equipment that the think they need to think my "Axis +200%" tip might be useful to many players.

-Andy[/QB]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

...Some other issues:

If you get Arty/Air (more exactly Big arty/Air) seem to make the battle TOUGHER than only getting say 150 pts Arty. Say you get 1000 pts Air. That will make the the Force Size skyrocket, and the Allied can spend all his points on more inf/armor/whatever, but you get to buy a potentionally "crappy" airplane, probably not worth the cost. Someone else commented on this, just wanted to raise the issue again.

On the Force Mix tables (and where Force Mix alters the rolls, like 30 Armor), shouldn't Combined Arms rank higher than Mechanized? At least for the germans (haven't checked the soviets), the Mechanized Force Mix allows you 0 pts in Armor, you're only allowed to buy vehicles, whereas Combined Arms is a "better" mix, with points in Armor.

Good points SuperSulo

Anybody out there had a good experience with Air?

Both On the list The Combined arms are an easy fix - I'll move it up

Biltong

[ November 30, 2002, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organ:

...

It seems teribly simple to me and not worth the angst that Bilt has obviously put into it, which makes me think I'm definitely missing something.......

Casualties & Player Experience - little bit more complicated than that... But don't worry - a simple solution has been found - just being tested at the moment

Biltong

[Apache]

Only because I'd rather have AFVs or infantry than loads of arty/air I must admit I'd rather there be more bias towards those units in Aux. Nothing I'm too bothered about though (until the next time I come up against 2 batallions of infantry with my core and 450 arty points

Modifiers should prevent now though.

Just one other issue, maybe it's designed to work like this (I know A LOT more about how QB set-ups work now, thanks to these rules) but, if I had set a 50% casualty rate for Allies (on the defence) with a 1,000 point force I'd be expecting to face around 500 points worth. When I was testing what the QBs let you purchase I noticed that I would be allowed to spend 2,000 points and get a Force worth about 1,000. Errrrrrrr, am I missing something :confused: I'd have thought the casualty rate would give you a weakened force, not a force of the same size made up of twice as many units at 50% strength?

[ November 30, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[gunnersman]

Good day all. Been playing with Biltong's rules and having a humbling expierience. I like it though. I have scanned all the old posts but I cant find one to help explain something I am confused about. I rolled for an immediated Axis assault. It says in the parameters "see note 8" I read note 8. I have no idea what note 8 says. I understand Random number. I have been using one six sided die and one four sided die together for my random numbers. I think I understand "Random Number 3-8: The previous options stay the same" that seems pretty obvious. But I dont understand "choosing the option before previous battle's setting... or... after previous battle setting" Does that mean the same parameters will be used as in the previous battle if you roll a 1 or 2 and you choose a whole new set of parameters if you roll a 9 or 10?

Thanks

The other Matt

[Apache]

Not sure if this is what you mean but AFAIK it means in the QB drop down menus for the various settings you roll for (which are listed at note 8)you set either one above or one below the that you used in the previos battle.

E.g. breeze becomes either (before) calm or (after) windy

Modest hills becomes (before) gentle slopes or (after) steep hills (or whatever it is).

[gunnersman]

Aaaaaah! Ok. That makes sense.

Thanks Apache.

[Apache]

Pleasure. In fact it might be worth looking at when the rule notes are reviewed for ease of understanding/logic flow. Might be better to replace 'before' with 'menu option above' etc. Must admit, that bit took me a while to get.

[86smopuim]

Heres throwing a wrench into the tracks

The Smope Method -- pre-Alpha

Will lead to smaller game I think.

generate battle params.

go to scenario editor.

Create battle with exact same params.

generate map based upon params. you will have to manually size it first though. base size on expected forces. This will be your "puchase point total"

Purchase Core+ scrounged units, at exact experiences. I like this part. Conscript + Crack mixed.

save.

Calculate the enemy handicap and battle size:

purchase point total, say 1000 pt example.

This will allways be the total points for axis,

regardless of attack/def.

Example Axis Attack Type Games

take 1000 / battle type modifier

[ 1.72 for assault, 1.5 for attack, 1.2 for

probe ]

1000 / 1.5 attack bonus = 666 points for allied

We want allied to end up with 666 points.

1000 - 569 = [ 431 ]

The closest beattle size to this will be the "battle size", so 400

so we start a game with 400, now handicap that

to bring it up to 666, so 60%.

[ 400 * 100 / 666 = x% ]

60% is allied handicap. roundup. 60% add

any handicaps provided my autoparameters

now start a QB, set parameters to to battle

params generated, except, battle size will be

400.

set human force to be auto generarated.

but set division, nationality types.

when choosing map type, do a Load from file.

when asked import troops, say "yes"

now you have ( 400 * 1.5 ) + your 569 =1169

pretty close to 1000.

versus 400 allied handicapped at 60%

400 + 240 = 640, pretty close to 666.

For Gnarly Mensch, add your experience factor,

+10/level to allied handicap %

for allied attack

take axis forcesize 1000 - base forces, 569 =431

the closest higher setting to 431 will be the

battle size, so 500.

apply battle type multiplier, 500 * 1.5 = 750

you want the allies to end up with 1500 points

from 750, so 100%

500 * 1.5 = 750 + 100% = 1500

your battle type will be a allied attack, size

500, 100% force handicap for allied.

then do the same importing and such as above.

Gets rid of alot of book keeping, your auxillery forces dont need to be written down. eliminates

causltie force size problem, no need for

infantry, arty, armor rolls.

Games wont be as tough as the oringal Biltong. I dunno, just an idea, not well written out.

What I like best is exact composition of my

"core force".

[86smopuim]

You need to find 2 numbers, Acutal_Battle_Size and Actual_Allied_Handicap

The Formulas for axis ME/probe/attack/assualt:

Base_Battle_Size = Puchase_Point_Total - Core_Force_Price

Actual_Battle_Size =Round Base_Battle_Size down to nearest CM battle Setting

Battle_Type_Modifiers

Assault 1.72

Attack 1.5

Probe 1.2

ME 1.0

Total_Axis_Force = ( Actual_Battle_Size * Battle_size_Modifier ) + Core_Force_Price

Target_Allied_Size = Total_Axis_Force / Battle_Type_Modifier

Base_Allied_Handicap % = (( Target_Allied_Size / Actual_Battle_Size)-1 )*10

Actual_Allied_Handicap = Generated Handicap + Base_Allied_Handicap + Experience_Factor

Formulas for Allied Attack

Base_Battle_Size = Puchase_Point_Total - Core_Force_Price

Actual_Battle_Size =Round Base_Battle_Size up to nearest CM battle Setting

Target_Allied_Size = Base_battle_Size * Battle_type_Modifier

Base_Allied_Force = Actual_Battle_Size * Battle_type_Modifier

Base_Allied_Handicap =( ( Target_allied_Force / BaseAllied_Force ) -1 ) * 100%

Actual_Allied_Handicap = Base_Allied_Handicap + Generated Allied Handicap + Experience_Factor

[ November 30, 2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: 86smopuim ]

[Biltong]

Player Experience/Purchase Points Solution

Well, Max and about a hundred other guys mailed me various solutions (mostly based on dividing the Purchase Point Total by the As/At/Pr modifiers and bringing in Player Exp.).

So I printed them up and took them to the beach to study.

Max’s looked like the most viable, BUT something still hassled me and I couldn’t put my finger on it… Then I realized it was all the beautiful topless girls… I ignored them for a second and then the simplicity of Max’s solution got me hooked

He ignores Player Exp. Completely saying: “…the player's experience will modify the Handicap in which the AI gets more forces automatically anyway, so why make it harder to calculate?” and concentrates solely on Battle Type and Axis Casualties.

So: minimal code changes and a solution easy enough for Newbie players to use. Exactly what was needed!

I’ve used Max’s Auto Parameters to test this for some time yesterday and it looks good… My only concern is the Player Exp settings in 36 Handicap – I think they make the battles too easy for Regular and above. But that’s a battle for a later date – enjoy your ‘easy’ ride in the meanwhile.

Changes:

Added the following in the notes (below 34 Fortifications) where you calculate your Purchase Point Total:

“Now Calculate the Provisional Force Size =

Total Purchase Points * (1 - Casualty Percentage / Battle Type Multiplier) -

See Note 11 - Provisional Force Size.

Using the Provisional Force Size choose the Force Size that is just higher than the Provisional Force Size. E.g.: if your Provisional Force Size is 1051 the Force Size must be set to 1250.”

Note 11 - Provisional Force Size

CMBB automatically gives the side that Assaults; Attacks or Probes extra Purchase Points at the following ratio: Assault: 1.72; Attack: 1.5 and Probe 1.4

If you (the Axis) are doing one of the above you must also get extra Purchase Points or (the way we do it here) the Allieds must be given less (reduced Force Size). Also: Axis Casualties must be catered for since the Axis (player) side is heavily penalized by CMBB.

Provisional Force Size = Total Purchase Points * (1 - Casualty Percentage / Battle Type Multiplier)

Fill this in the box provided on the Parameter Sheet.

Example 1: Purchase Points: 1000; Casualty: 20%; Battle Type: Assault

Provisional Force Size = 1000 * (1 - .2) / 1.72 = 465 (round up)

Note: The Battle Type only has an influence if the Axis Attack/Assault/Probe – in all other cases it is: 1.

And: Casualty percentage is made into decimals: 20% becomes .2 (example above)

These changes will be incorporated in the next version (Fri 6/12), but you can start using them already - any feedback welcome as always.

Biltong

[TikiBob]

couple quick notes...

I've been lurking for some time now and debating order CM since the original. I just hate ordering things. If it was in stores I would have gotten it years ago.

Well this thread has sold me.

I'm an old ASL fan. And this system sounds so damn complicated I know if can't be far from ASL!!!

I'm in!

j/k

Ken

[Biltong]

Originally posted by TikiBob:

....

I'm an old ASL fan. And this system sounds so damn complicated I know if can't be far from ASL!!!

I'm in!

Ken

Say goodbye to yer family life..

Welcome!

Biltong

[Biltong]

AIRCRAFT USELESS

Been a couple of posts re the pain of receiving an expensive, but useless aircraft...

Just ran some tests using Max's magic Auto...

Don't fear - the only real chance you'll be saddled with Goering's babies are in June - less so in July and thereafter the chance of one appearing to support your heroic Core becomes v.e.r.y slim... You definitely won't see a single one come Dec.

I don't want to elliminate them completely. I would like the BCR players to experience them at least once in the whole campaign.

As for their effectiveness... outa my hands

[SuperSulo]

Regarding Airplanes, I removed them completely from the Battle Size. I instead use two separate tables for Air Support, one for axis, one for allied. Roll a modified 10 (+ for axis in June, July, + for allied in late year), and that side gets some kind of air support (what kind? I roll again on the planes available in the current month). This way, even the allied can get air support, since I don't think the computer will ever buy one in a normal QB. Sure, I will know they will have it, but I have the tables after I've gotten my aux, so there's nothing I can do to get more AA or something.

Yes, this only works when using the scenario editor, but that's the ONLY way to play BCR, imnsho

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Regarding Airplanes,... using the scenario editor, but that's the ONLY way to play BCR, imnsho

Super - What about writing up a detailed doc on how to play using the editor and publish it on the sites?

BTW - have you tried using one of Manstein22's maps?

Oh - and what does 'imnsho' mean? In my ...? ...? humble opinion? I could think of some words to put in there, but I'm sure they're wrong

[Biltong]

I don’t know if this is as it should work or if it is a bug – and if so, if it has been reported yet.

In the Map editor you can set the ‘friendly’ sides as North/South… I tested it a couple of times (before & after the patch), but when you generate forces they still hug the West/East borders of your setup zones. Whether they retreat North/South I did not test.

However – since we assume it is a bug, it is a mayor pain for the map designers creating variations for the Map Add-On Packs.

We need to make 7 maps (Axis Ass.; Att.; Pr. // Allied Ass.; Att.; Pr. // ME) preferably from a single map by varying setup zones; flag numbers & positions; and some terrain features. If we could switch the existing map to South/North for some of the variations it would make our lives a lot easier….

Anyone knows if this is as it should be? A bug? Reported as such? Does BFC know about it?

Much appreciated

Biltong

[Scooby2003]

Site up to date as of sunday dec 1.

Scooby's Site

Enjoy!

PLEASE NOTE....UPDATED WEB ADDRESS

[ December 01, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Scooby2003 ]