Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[Uber Spurhund]

I love you man.....Now back to some serious killin'

[Biltong]

Thanx Uber

BTW all you Map Designers starting out and 'old' hands - looks like we might have a solution for the Large Battle Problem (most battles tend to be small and players would like a larger one once in a while)...

So we'll need a couple of large maps...

Not 'Huge' or '$%#ing Huge' - just Large

Biltong

[Max BrauHaus]

Regarding ways to limit the experience gain, my thought was that applying a diminishing returns modifier, like square root, to the experience would help out. So a squad that manages to inflict 4 casualties gets 2 pts, and one that manages 25 will get 5. Even truly massive amounts of damage inflicted would only result in 10-12 experience points gained. This gives a slight experience bonus to units having a really good round, while most units will slowly work their way up 2 or 3 points at a time.

I'd like to voice my support for this idea, at least when it comes to infantry casualties. Square roots may at first sound difficult to deal with, but just consider that a table could be provided for everything up to 50 kills or so, just like Biltong has provided a table of random numbers. And automating it is a breeze.

[TikiBob]

I just got BB and I've been following this thread somewhat for the past few days. Basically is it done yet? It seems to be a work in progress but is it playable or just betatestable?

And where is the up to date version? There seem to be changes every day.

Can't wait to try it. Sounds Great!

Thanks,

Ken

[Ichthys]

Proposal for Major Actions

>from the to-do list:

> Is there a need to include a randomised

> possibility (say between every 5th or 10th

> battle) that you core may be ordered to

> participate in a major action? This could be

> linked in auto-parameter sheet to a battle

> number you enter at top as you play the

> campaign? Also, what about an occasional

> bonus platoon of this/that (e.g. AFVs, tanks

> troops etc)?

Have a 'major action' die roll. On a 1-7 do nothing. On an 8-9, set an auxiliaries-multiplier to 2x. On a 10 set an auxiliaries-multiplier to

3x. Use appropriate modifiers for dates when major operations were taking place.

Then when rolling up auxiliaries multiply by the auxiliaries-multiplier. Also, set a minimum value of 200 in each category if using a 2x multiplier and 300 miniumum if using a 3x multiplier. This can result in battles quite a bit bigger than normal and also insures that major operations have a decent amount of stuff from each category.

-Andy

[Biltong]

Originally posted by TikiBob:

I just got BB and I've been following this thread somewhat for the past few days. Basically is it done yet? It seems to be a work in progress but is it playable or just betatestable?

And where is the up to date version? There seem to be changes every day.

Can't wait to try it. Sounds Great!

Ken

Hi Ken

These rules have been addapted from Wreck's original rules which a lot of guys have been playing for over 8? months.

What we are doing is fine tuning them.

All mayor changes has been done.

Most of the changes that are listed are so minor, most players won't even notice when we change them.

We are just trying to get as close to historical reality as possible.

So - charge ahead

But be warned - it's a nasty addiction

Biltong

[SuperSulo]

Biltong, the latest version is indeed very close to being "done". Good job! Just those last few issues, then it's off for '42, right? I'm nowhere near '42 yet (still July), but I'm very interested about what will happen then. I have no idea about dates and such of the east front, so playing "by the rules" also gives me a small history lesson.

Also, I think it would be fairly easy to convert the rules to a human allied player against the axis AI. Don't know if anyone would be interested it that, but it should be easy.

[Biltong]

Catching up on all the posts – where the rules have been changed/clarified etc in the meanwhile addressing the question I’m skipping it. So if you don’t see an answer, check the latest V1.3 of BCR/Intro Doc etc. If it still does not answer your query – please post again. Hopefully I’ll be up to date for a change

Apache 29/11

“I still think it's a bit OTT that a unit panicked at end if it only just broke gets a double whammy against a bunch that broke early on and came back only to sit and quiver in the woods until the end mind. Not sure about the tank and other vehicles killed in favour either. I presume if a tank is burning it is counted once as a burn, not once for burning and once for KO?”

The whole Core Sheet hasn’t changed much from the original rules, but it’s due for a revamp! - This week?

SuperSulo 29/11

“Apache, yes, there are some things in the Core Sheet that I don't agree on/should be made clear... Like:

That "KO'd" and "KO & Burn", in my understanding you only apply one of these. Could also be "KO'd" = - 8, "Burn" = - 2.

And if any of these, KO, Burn or abandoned, happens, doesn't the crew automaticly get "broke panic"? Or is it just they get the little "dot"? Hmm come to think of it, what does "broke panic" mean? I always thought it was "if they have the dot"?

I'm still not sure what I think about the negative experience for say surviving a blown up tank... should teach you something, like seeing your buddies die as it is now.”

See above

Vils 29/11

By looking at the prerolled numbers, i gahther it is a d10 that should be used, right?

Right!

See Intro Doc

Random Numbers – A Sheet containing 1,600 random numbers (between 1 and 10) that you use in conjunction with the Rules to roll up the Parameters. You can use these over and over simply by starting one number further on or going backwards/from the bottom etc. etc.

Max 29/11

…. Page 77 of the manual says: "Valid sewer entry and exit points are only the large heavy 2-story houses usually found in cities." No other limitation is listed as far as I can see. I haven't looked into if the QB map generator will use these buildings in anything other than a Large Town. However, since Biltong has maps coming in, we may have some of these buildings in something slightly smaller than urban combat zones. Probably most likely sewer movement only needs to be considered in a Large Town.”

This is going to need some testing… not a mayor issue at the moment, but later in 41 and thereafter it does become one.

Andy 30/11

Re a non-excel auto sheet…

“I'm working on a program, so far it has all the tables through the Allied-parameters, but the user-interface is virtually non-existant (or maybe it's a user-inteface only a programmer could love ). In addition to parameters, I'm hoping it will eventually be able to track units' experience , favor, and automate replacements -- but that sort of functionality is a long way off.”

How’s it going Andy – any news there – I’m following this with some interest.

Walpurgis Night 3/12

“Now, would someone do me the favor of explaining in simple 'stupid' terms how to set it up? I've downloaded all the zip files, but I don't know if I need all of them to play, and I don't know where to put these new "folders" anyway.

Someone help a computer rookie!!”

Get the Intro doc from the websites (see 1st post of this thread)… It has a walk through for 1st timers. It will help to get you going.

Welcome and enjoy!!

Apache 4/12

“Favor sheets seem fine. There is one issue that's been pointed out so I won't repeat.”

Please do – In the first weeks things were quite chaotic and I missed some issues…. If it hasn’t been addressed in the meanwhile – please post again

“One thing did occur to me though when I was running through some manual sheets. The layout at the moment begs you to fill in the numbers knocked out against the '2 x' for instance in the box below unit type. This still leaves the player to either calculate the total per unit and scribble it elsewhere on the sheet or try a 'in the head' calculation as you go through. Would the layout of the sheet not be improved by putting the 1x, 2x 4x 10x etc. in the box with the unit type in question, leaving the box underneath blank for the total to be filled in? Players could then just tot the lot up easier IMO.”

When looking at the battle map after a battle it’s normally quite easy to see which tanks are burning etc. You can just add them up in your head. As for the mortars: You have to use the ‘+ key’ to move through all your and the enemy units in any case… I would like to keep the Favor Sheet on one sheet and keep things simple… expanding it like that will spread it over 2 printed sheets… KISS

SuperSulo 4/12

“…you should use the correct setting for Quality when you do the Auto QB, not Random or Unrestricted. Use the 56 Normal Replacement and Appendix A to see what Experience Level you should use.

I know, this isn't very clear from reading the rules, it even says "Always use unrestricted" somewhere. Even I am not sure what to do, but what I said above seems to work for me. I'm sure it will be corrected/cleared up sometime soon….

It just has…. See next Fridays (13 Dec) update.

Max 4/12

“I'd like to look into the use of Favor points to improve one's force…..”

Listed – to be scheduled – sounds interesting – tell me more

SuperSulo 4/12

“Regarding that "Experience Gain Problem / Solution" Biltong posted above...”

Great post Super – clarified a lot of stuff… If everything goes well – this is on the list for tomorrow

Apache 5/12

“I think the favour purchase is a good idea too. Given the purpose of favour it may be that if your CO thinks you are a particularly fine chap ….”

Good! Added to the suggestions above

Mare 5/12

“Regarding ways to limit the experience gain, my thought was that applying a diminishing returns modifier, like square root, to the experience … “

Interesting solution – added to the possibilities

Apache 6/12

“I've only played a couple of the map battles so far (too busy printing/reading rules/changes etc.) but I think the ones I have currently played from Manstein are first class. “

He’s been putting a lot of work in and feedback like this might just make it a bit easier

“I think CMBB QB generator does a resaonable job mind, I just think the logic of where and how things are placed is a bit bizarre at time, esp if you start to involve towns etc.”

I agree – my only ‘real’ problem with them is flag placement – quite like some of them, but they can’t beat a human designed one. But it’s easy to criticize: I can just imagine the amount of code that was needed for the map generation… It’s not as if BCR are that clean or perfect either LOL

Mare 7/12

“Proposal for Major Actions

Have a 'major action' die roll. On a 1-7 do nothing. On an 8-9, set an auxiliaries-multiplier to 2x. On a 10 set an auxiliaries-multiplier to

3x. Use appropriate modifiers for dates when major operations were taking place….”

Sounds good!!! On da list!!

SuperSulo 7/12

“Biltong, the latest version is indeed very close to being "done". Good job! Just those last few issues, then it's off for '42, right? “

Thanx and yes – but it will be some weeks still...

"I'm nowhere near '42 yet (still July), but I'm very interested about what will happen then. I have no idea about dates and such of the east front, so playing "by the rules" also gives me a small history lesson."

I’ve started reading up – in fact 42 is very similar to 41… Axis having a go in the summer and being hammered in the winter… LOL In the South in any case..

"Also, I think it would be fairly easy to convert the rules to a human allied player against the axis AI. Don't know if anyone would be interested it that, but it should be easy."

shouldn’t be too difficult… had one request for that already… But by the time we’re finished with 45 in Berlin CM3 is bound to be out and then we’ll have to start again

Finally – Up to date with my e-mails & posts Yahoo!!

Now I just have to sort and filter the Update doc (14 pages!!)

The feedback on this thread has been absolutely terrific!

Without your input the rules would still be nowhere…

Please keep it up and if I have forgotten to answer or thank anyone – please forgive the old brain…

I hope to do this every weekend so that you’ll be able to see (by checking the Update doc) if I skipped/forgot your suggestions.

Thanx Guys – keep it up we’re getting there!!

Biltong

[Ichthys]

Andy 30/11

Re a non-excel auto sheet…

“I'm working on a program, so far it has all the tables through the Allied-parameters, but the user-interface is virtually non-existant (or maybe it's a user-inteface only a programmer could love ). In addition to parameters, I'm hoping it will eventually be able to track units' experience , favor, and automate replacements -- but that sort of functionality is a long way off.”

How’s it going Andy – any news there – I’m following this with some interest

I lost a few days last week when my machine wouldn't boot (apparently a sector of my hard disk went bad in the middle of a Windows boot file). Fortunately no data was lost, but I had to reinstall Windows and most applications on my PC.

I have just a few more tables to enter, then a little better interface and it will be ready for alpha testing.

[Apache]

Just like to say thanks to everyone involved in this project and particularly Biltong who presumably doesn't sleep (like it says in your profile). Anyone interested in a campaign should find something they like here, especially when it's all finished. Lots of selfless effort has gone into this from all concerned. Being a benefactor of all that work (I want a campaign too) - THANKS!!

Bit of a downside for me though for the next few days, I'm away on a course so won't be able to contribute much. Will just have to take a laptop and try out the versions and get in touch when I get back. Bye for now

[ December 07, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Apache:

...Bit of a downside for me though for the next few days, I'm away on a course so won't be able to contribute much..

Come now Apache - get your priorities Right! RESIGN!! How can you let work interfere with the campaign!!

Happy hunting and hurry back

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Mare Ichthys:

Re a non-excel auto sheet…

...I have just a few more tables to enter, then a little better interface and it will be ready for alpha testing.

Sounds good! Some guys will be happy...

Biltong

[Biltong]

OK - onto Exp Gain...

What maketh a man?

How many East Front battles would an average German inf soldier have to live through to move from Conscript to Green to Regular to Vet to Crack?

How about 5 from Con to Green; 8 more from Green to Regular; 12 from Reg to Vet. And 40 more to get to Crack? Just looking for gutfeel/averages.

Biltong

[Apache]

Not sure but would any/many be green at all? Esp SS etc. If green is to be kept in IMHO it should perhaps be only a couple of battles to get them to regular, 7 - 10 or more for Vet, 20+ more for crack. Probably total crap mind

In this instance it might be an idea to stick up a fresh post in this forum asking just that question. If you give an idea as to how long the campaign 'game' may last (no idea myself, I keep scrapping the one I started when there is a rule change, hoping I won't get clobbered as much ) there may well be a few of the real grogs who could give a very well reasoned answer. Some I know of are virtual walking encyclopaedias on this stuff.

[ December 07, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[SuperSulo]

Three things before I'm off for a 1250 pts axis probe on one of manstein's maps... :

Could the exact dimensions of the maps be entered into the Map Add-on? I was about to try a map labeled "medium", but it was 1600m "wide" (attack direction), that's a bit long for my all infantry task force. A medium map for a 1250 probe is 1040m wide when the QB generates it with my parameters. So, if the Map sheet would have the dimensions in it, it would be great.

Next: When on goes through the after battle map, looking for knocked out/abandoned mortars and stuff, it's a lot easier finding them with labels (or what it's called, shift-g). Just a small tip.

Last: How long it should take to go con-green-reg-vet-crack. I have no idea really, but my gut says:

green -> reg : 4-5 battles

reg -> vet : a lot longer, a year's worth of battles? How many battles that may be... Didn't many of the troops at the beginning of Barbarossa have a year or more experience from france etc?

vet -> crack : many, many battles. There guys should be Rare!

Like I saw in the "main forum thread" by Biltong, someone said conscripts should never be able to reach green, as they are basicly just old men and small boys thrown in at the last time in the end of the war. I don't know what I think of that, but I have lifted conscripts out of "my" rules (for the axis ), and plan to only bring them in in '45 or so.

I really hope some expert can tell us how it really was

[Eden Smallwood]

Would it be possible for some kind soul to save/post the various spreadsheets as XL 4.0 readable?

Eden

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

Would it be possible for some kind soul to save/post the various spreadsheets as XL 4.0 readable?

Eden

Hi Eden,

Go here:

Scooby's Site

You can download BCR or Max’s Auto Parameters in PDF; or view the individual Rules sheets and the Intro Doc in PDF format online.

Enjoy!!

Biltong

[Scooby2003]

All the rules sheets are on my site but unfortunately, the auto-parameters sheet requires Excel. (tried saving the auto parameters sheet in 4.0 format but it wouldn't work)

[ December 08, 2002, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Scooby2003 ]

[Biltong]

Hi Super

Could the exact dimensions of the maps be entered into the Map Add-on?

Done!

Next: When on goes through the after battle map, looking for knocked out/abandoned mortars and stuff, it's a lot easier finding them with labels (or what it's called, shift-g). Just a small tip.

I love tips – esp. the ones that crinkle

Last: How long it should take to go con-green-reg-vet-crack. I have no idea really, but my gut says:

green -> reg : 4-5 battles

reg -> vet : a lot longer, a year's worth of battles? How many battles that may be...

in 41 maybe 15 - 30? Die roll makes a definite impossible.

Didn't many of the troops at the beginning of Barbarossa have a year or more experience from France etc?

Yep – Most I would say – In the rules I wrote a note: “Be aware that starting off with a Green Core is quite difficult and not quite historical either. Some, if not most, of the German Divisions had seen some action in Western Europe.”

vet -> crack : many, many battles. These guys should be Rare!

I agree – I would say 40 battles at least… The problem is: taking your Core through a 5 year campaign you will end up, after only a year or so, with Crack troops, which to my mind means that all the battles thereafter might become boring…. A problem that will have to be solved at some stage.

Edit 9/12 I believe we have just cracked this one as well

Like I saw in the "main forum thread" by Biltong, someone said conscripts should never be able to reach green, as they are basicly just old men and small boys thrown in at the last time in the end of the war.

Another guy mentioned that they were deployed in 42 already…?

We need confirmation. I’m going to start working on the Exp gain problem today, (I hope - got my 6 year – oops, 7 year old boy’s birthday party just now – 13 screaming kids! Rather face a platoon of Ruskies :eek: ), and I’ll incorporate it.

I don't know what I think of that, but I have lifted conscripts out of "my" rules (for the axis ), and plan to only bring them in '45 or so.

I really hope some expert can tell us how it really was…

mmm my sources are severely restricted – and searching for info, like these, on the web, takes ages… We need a Grog!! – I’ll post and ask on the boards again… the answers I got so far has been a bit vague…

Edit 9/12 - got some excellent grog e-mails - confirms that we are on the right track with the solution that came up just after this post.

Biltong

[ December 09, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[SuperSulo]

Another idea:

I read that veteran's story someone posted, and he got taken "off the line" for at least one time to receive training. Maybe we could have the same thing. That would help a bit with the "constant battle/gain experience too quick"-problem.

In a way, it's already in the rules, if you roll a modified 9 or 10 in rule 1 DATE. But that is very difficult to do. It's impossible in June, July and December, and you have to roll a 10 in October and November. Anyway, maybe if one do roll a "Month" in rule 1, that would be considered training for the entire outfit, and they gain say 5 exp. points?

Hmm now that I think about it, maybe part of the problem with "too quick experience gain" is that we get too many battles in too short time?

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Scooby2003:

the auto-parameters sheet requires Excel.

I guess you mean 'Excel greater than 4.0' ? So, er... is there some other way to get that one? Or maybe I don't need it; I should probably hold off on asking a bazillion questions- I'm still trying to get a handle on't.

(tried saving the auto parameters sheet in 4.0 format but it wouldn't work)

Well that's weird. Thanks for trying.

So I'm printing the PDFs; when a new version is out 1) what's the best way to become cognizant of it? 2) will changes to the rules be sectioned (replace version 1.3 page 13 with version 1.4 page 13 and page 13.1) ?

Eden

[Max BrauHaus]

I haven't tried saving the Auto Parameters sheet back to Excel 4.0, but I do know this much. Excel 4.0 only supports single sheet XLS files. The Auto Parameters sheet is multi-sheet with references across all sheets. It would be quite the pain to make it compatible with 4.0

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Max BrauHaus:

I haven't tried saving the Auto Parameters sheet back to Excel 4.0, but I do know this much. Excel 4.0 only supports single sheet XLS files. The Auto Parameters sheet is multi-sheet with references across all sheets. It would be quite the pain to make it compatible with 4.0

Oh I get it; thx.

Eden's small effort to payback the Commander of the Documents:

'favor.pdf' has three pages; page 2 and 3 are blank.

'mapaddon.pdf' has a landscaped image across two pages. Er, look at page two and I think you'll see; I think you meant that in landscape orientation on page one.

Numbering of sections in Rules is inconsistent: { 5a, 5b} and {12,12a,12b} raise question, "is there a '5'?"

Page numbers with filename, even if one page document, would be classy: "BCR rules v1.3 page 1"

If sectional updating is envisioned, "smart" page breaks between sections would be needed. Hth,

Eden

[Biltong]

Unit Exp Gain Problem & Possible Solution

Ok Guys,

Here we go…

I looked through all the e-mails and posts re this problem and come up with the following:

PROBLEM

Units Gain Experience too Fast..impressive huh?

Considerations

1. Unit exp gain should be historically accurate

2. If units reach crack too fast, players will find the campaign too easy and abandon it.

3. Keep the change Simple (KISS) since the rules are starting to become too complicated

Other Considerations

Apache 29/11

I still think it's a bit OTT that a unit panicked at end if it only just broke gets a double whammy…. I presume if a tank is burning it is counted once as a burn, not once for burning and once for KO?

SuperSulo 29/11

That "KO'd" and "KO & Burn", in my understanding you only apply one of these…. what does "broke panic" mean? I always thought it was "if they have the dot"?

Why use two tables, in appendix a and b?

Should "Enemy Casualty" really be "+1 each"?

Claude 4/12

Note 2 - Emergency Reorganization. One paragraph begins with "You will

be left with some ...". It implies that the missing individuals from

partial squads/teams will rejoin the unit at a later time. However, I see

no place where they are reintegrated into the force. Should there be?

Since this represents an ad hoc collection, have you considered changing the title to "Battle Group"?

Also

Cleanup Parameter Sheet and bring Scrounged units in line with the rest and adjust the rules to make this clearer.

Clarify Exp gain throughout the rules for Battle Group (old core + Scrounged Units) as well as Aux.

Modify Parameter and Battle Group (old Core Sheet)

No Conscripts in 41 South (except the penalty for CO’s who die)

Overall exp gain - simplify

Thoughts

1. No-one had a definite answer as to how long the piece of string was (Green to Reg to Vet etc) decided that playability will be the main factor: Reasonably easy to get from green to Reg.; quite difficult from Reg. to Vet. and virtually impossible to get to Crack.

2. The main problem with exp gain is points for killing soldiers.

A soldier who is in the thick of things; handgrenades exploding around him; being shot at; shoots a couple of shots, but misses; nearly gets killed

VS The famous gun who kills 150 soldiers from far away….

Solution: No points for killing

OLD RULES:

Points for:

Mortar; Own KIA; prisoners; vehicle

Points against:

Broke at end;

What exp do you get when you shoot up a mortar crew; a car; capture some poor slob?

Own KIA – maybe… but too many points too easy…

Broke at end? Rattled is Rattled.

Solution: All gone

But taking out a tank – yes; an inf. guy who takes out a MG pillbox – yes; etc – all the things that give you ribbons & medals

Overall exp gain… You kill a lot of enemy – you get more points? Sounds like an easy fight to me…

Solution: just one point per battle - no calc.

So – Normally 1 exp. point gain per battle; once in blue moon a 2 or even 3, if the inf. manages to take out a bunker or tank – Fausts will earn faster, but they die faster as well… so does armor.

If the CO is a bit careless and his squads keep on panicking… no gain

If the CO is careless and marches his troops along the map edge… no gain

If the CO is reckless with his MG’s and Mortars… even a ‘–1’

So – slow and steady exp. gain if the Co is good…

Appendix A B = history

5-10 Green

10 > 25 Regular

25 > 60 Veteran

60 > Crack

There’s a 5 year campaign ahead…. And the replacements should help to keep the exp gain down.

Other changes

1. Core = history. ‘Battle Group’ nice & romantic and more accurate as well.

2. Infantry:

Fled Map –1, Rattled –1, Equipment Lost –1, MG Bunker +1, MG Pillbox +2, Light Armor +1, Enemy Tank +2

3. Armor:

Fled Map –1, Rattled –1, KO’d/Aband –1, Gun Pillbox +1, Enemy Tank +1

4. Overall Exp Gain – no formula – just +1 per battle for every unit

5. Replacements: LT 3 = 5 (Green), 3-8 = 10 (Reg), GT 8 = 25 (Vet)

(plus date/CO modifiers)

6. Explained how Normal; Scrounged and Auxiliaries get their replacements – e.g.: See Aux below

Aux replacements

You will find that the QB generates a wide range of Experience for your Auxiliaries. Ignore this. When you buy your Auxiliaries for the Real Battle, you will only use the Experience that you rolled up earlier while determining Quality (21).

Quality (21) points to:

Note 13 Auxiliary Experience

To determine Quality (21) you will have to determine your Auxiliaries Experience setting first.

It is calculated using the same modifiers that you will use later to determine Normal Replacements (56) combined with Appendix A. Tick the box provided on your Parameter Sheet. You will need this later when buying your Auxiliary Units.

However: the QB parameter for Quality only allows generalized settings: Low, Medium and High and the AI could decide that ‘Medium’ means Regular in 41 and Veteran in 43!

For the purposes of '41 South' use the following Quality: Green = Low, Regular = Medium, Veteran and Crack = High

Claude and Mare put a lot of effort into coming up with formulas – thanx guys, but I decided to keep it simple – worried about newbies running away...

That’s it!

Curious to read your reactions... t'morrow...

(2:00am) :eek: off ta bed

G'night

Biltong

[ December 08, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[Eden Smallwood]

For the *first battle*, are the Aux units determined in the same way as for any other battle, or are they specifically taken from Green Germans? Or are they determined the same way as for any other battle, except for the one single difference that they must be Green? Er...? Thank you,

Eden