Biltong's Campaign Rules - Cont.

[Sardaukar]

I just emailed my addition to rules (All Armoured Core) to Biltong for evaluation. If someone is interested, drop me an email: sardaukar67@yahoo.com

Cheers,

M.S.

[SuperSulo]

Biltong, those changes sounds very good to me! I think I will have to see the new version for any deeper comments, it's a bit hard to see all/any complications without all rules put togeather. But, it sounds good!

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Sardaukar:

I just emailed my addition to rules (All Armoured Core) to Biltong for evaluation. If someone is interested, drop me an email: sardaukar67@yahoo.com

Cheers,

M.S.

Check your mail Sardaukar

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Biltong, those changes sounds very good to me! I think I will have to see the new version for any deeper comments, it's a bit hard to see all/any complications without all rules put togeather. But, it sounds good!

Mmmm.. lets hope...

Just cleaning up the Update doc then I'll send it along...

Later

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Another idea:

I read that veteran's story someone posted, and he got taken "off the line" for at least one time to receive training. Maybe we could have the same thing. That would help a bit with the "constant battle/gain experience too quick"-problem.

In a way, it's already in the rules, if you roll a modified 9 or 10 in rule 1 DATE. But that is very difficult to do. It's impossible in June, July and December, and you have to roll a 10 in October and November. Anyway, maybe if one do roll a "Month" in rule 1, that would be considered training for the entire outfit, and they gain say 5 exp. points?

Hmm now that I think about it, maybe part of the problem with "too quick experience gain" is that we get too many battles in too short time?

Wragtag - we are moving more and more into Grog territory... How many battles did the average inf experience in South 41 :confused:

G-Damn this is realy fine tuning...

On the list

[SuperSulo]

Heh sorry Biltong, I'll try to restrain myself.

Just one more thing :

I had a look over of the new changes on the experience gain in the Battle Group sheet...

Shouldn't knocking out a gun give experience? I hate those buggers! In my current battle they took out all of my 3 tanks (in 3 turns). Ran into a PAK front or something and nowhere to hide (thanks a lot, Manstein! ).

[Biltong]

Originally posted by SuperSulo:

Heh sorry Biltong, I'll try to restrain myself.

Just one more thing :

I had a look over of the new changes on the experience gain in the Battle Group sheet...

Shouldn't knocking out a gun give experience? I hate those buggers! In my current battle they took out all of my 3 tanks (in 3 turns). Ran into a PAK front or something and nowhere to hide (thanks a lot, Manstein! ).

Nah!! No medals/ribbons for guns = no points

Grogs correct me, but I think you only got patches for tank kills. Guns were all in a days work

Then there's the problem: what size gun?

So you kill a little teeny scout tank and get 2 points and nothing for killing a mother AT gun: Unfair... Mmm agreed, but: KISS

Once you;ve bought the Strategy Guide you're going to be killing guns by the ton and Zip!! off you go to Crack... Back to square one

As few points gain, per battle, as possible gives BCR better 'historical' quality 'growth' from Green to Reg etc.

Been thinking about this... I think we might be on to something here... Steve & Charles' main problem (AFAIK) with campaigs were/are the unhistorical exp gain and with a bit of luck and a lot of testing we might just have cracked it?

Let me sleep on it and then I'll write it ip t'morrow - 2am again here Damn!! $%#&$% clock is too fast.

G'night

Biltong

[ December 09, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Biltong ]

[SuperSulo]

Heh, I have NO idea about patches or ribbons, but I do remember something from BoB, where they attacked that gun emplacement and got lots of different medals, but maybe that wasn't for the guns but for the battle itself. Oh and they were yanks.

But no sweat, it's easy enough to add if I want it.

I completely agree with you on no exp. for mortars though, I knock those out even when I'm not trying. Sad thing is my mortars dies so easily too. :/

[Death Commando]

Hi, got a question on Note 5 on this part

"BUT now they get 6 replacement that have 0 Experience. :-(

Using the formula in Note 3: (7 men left x +11 experience) + (6 replacements x 0 experience) divided by 13 men = 5.92 Round up from .5 so After Replacement Exp for the squad = +6"

So, your saying that the {replacements x experience) will always be zero? Since your getting green experience soldier as replacemnets, or do i roll a die on (56) NORMAL REPLACEMENTS to get the experience or is this just for (54)scourged units.

Also, on the favor sheet it lists the outcome of the battle (total defeaat -30, etc.) but my outcome on my first battle was a minor defeat. What would be the points on this?

Thanx,

[ December 09, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Death Commando ]

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Death Commando:

So, your saying that the {replacements x experience) will always be zero?

Hey Commando- I'm struggling with this stuff too. Until you get a 'real' answer, (I'm waiting for one myself, back there a ways- got a clue?), I think that part of the equation is non-zero in the case where you are replenishing your casualtied squads with your *other* casualtied squads, (from 'scrounged' squads first, I think, unless it's an emergency reorg..?)

So if you had A,B,C squads in your Core, each of which lost three guys, (nine total lost), and you have another squad D which lost one guy, you could take those nine remaining D guys, (which might have experience), and toss them into the A,B,C squads to get three full squads at 10 guys apiece. In that case the equation makes a difference.

That's what I'm doing*, but caveat I barely undertand half of these rules!

Also, on the favor sheet it lists the outcome of the battle (total defeaat -30, etc.) but my outcome on my first battle was a minor defeat.

Good catch! No Minor Victory listed, either...

*EDIT - Well I have to do an 'Immediate Attack', (I'm hosed!) so the rules are different then- I have to replenish with my existing Rambos. But still, I think that's how the equation makes sense.

Eden

[ December 09, 2002, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Eden Smallwood ]

[Max BrauHaus]

The replacements' experience is calculated using (56) Normal Replacements (unless it is an Immediate or Counter Attack). So the value may not be zero, could be higher based on the roll.

Biltong has revised this portion of the rules significantly and will release them this week (Friday), but based on your questions, I think he does have at least one clarification to make.

[Max BrauHaus]

Has anyone played a battle on the defensive yet against the AI using BCR? I'd like to hear how it worked out. Was it a difficult battle or did the AI flounder? Was it too easy? If you have, how much handicap did the AI have?

[JaegerMeister]

On the medals/patches subject, shouldn't this also be self implemented?..ie in a PBEM battle i had recently, a tank hunting team (1941) completely reversed a battle by assaulting & destroying 2 T34 tanks that were bashing the hell out of my infantry positions...i immediately awarded that team the EK 1 (in my mind) and announced it to the opponent, who agreed !..cos thats what they probably would have got in real life for saving the day with their bravery. Incidents like that should be reflected in these rules somehow?

Also, Max, about the defensive.. i had an M.E. using the rules the other day that straight away turned into a defencive action for me due to the opposition having a regiment of infantry against my little company! It was a close run thing and i think only my 3 tanks prevented me from being overrun and the fact my men were in rubble positions on hills. It went right to the wire and if there had been a couple of more turns, they would have wiped out my forward posts for sure. Even though they were 'weakened', 50% losses? & 30% ammo, they came inexorably on towards me...a real buzz that was!

[SuperSulo]

One thing I've always wondered about in the rules:

In Note 4 - Battle Group, it says (a bit down, in the middle):

"In July you will notice that you can no longer carry on with the above Inf Co… it no longer exist."

Is that correct? I can buy a Infantry Company (Motorized), under Motorized Infantry Battalion (Pz)'41 for 343 pts, Division Mechanized, in July too.

[Master Dullard aka flyingcursor]

Pending Biltong's OK I'll have a Javascript version of the rules. It will make it all quick and simple.

Biltong, email has been sent to you.

[Sardaukar]

Does anyone have reference about ratio/numbers of tank/assault gun/PSWs in German use on Eastern front June 22, 1941 ? I've packed most of my books for move and I cannot recall if any of those gave detailed numbers. I'd like to get my numbers straight for my armoured add-on. Online links, names of books, hearsay ...everything is appreciated.

Cheers,

M.S.

[JaegerMeister]

Sardauker.....stick that request as a new topic on the forum and all the grogs will give you a quick answer !

[Master Dullard aka flyingcursor]

It will get answered if it doesn't get buried in the masses.

[Biltong]

SuperSulo

Heh, I have NO idea about patches or ribbons, but I do remember something from BoB, where they attacked that gun emplacement and got lots of different medals, but maybe that wasn't for the guns but for the battle itself. Oh and they were yanks.

Yanks or not – that was a single platoon taking on 50? entrenched troops with MG’s et al… They deserved some medals! That is a 'real' and quite famous skirmish AFAIK.

But no sweat, it's easy enough to add if I want it.

There we go!! Can't say it enough guys: BCR is the ideal lover: mold her to your desires!

I completely agree with you on no exp. for mortars though, I knock

those out even when I'm not trying. Sad thing is my mortars dies so easily too.

Tried keeping them out of sight with a HQ spotting for them? Great for killing those guns that were bugging you so much J

Death Commando Eden Smallwood

Oudated example rearing it's head..

Note 5 - Experience gain example should read

...BUT now they get 6 Green replacement with 5 Experience. :-(

Using the formula in Note 3: (7 men left x +10 experience) + (6 replacements x 5 experience) divided by 13 men = 7.69 Round up from .5 So After Replacement Exp for the squad remains +8

There'll be more

As for the ‘No Minor Victory listed’ on the Favor Sheet…. Somewhere I got the idea that Minor Vic/defeat was changed to ‘Tactical’…? It’s been so long since I’ve been able to play – you guys will have to help me out here… Do you get both Tactical and Minor Defeat/Vic or just Minor Def/Vic?

JaegerMeister

On the medals/patches subject, shouldn't this also be self implemented?..ie in a PBEM battle i had recently, a tank hunting team (1941) completely reversed a battle by assaulting & destroying 2 T34 tanks that were bashing the hell out of my infantry positions...i immediately awarded that team the EK 1 (in my mind) and announced it to the opponent, who agreed !..cos thats what they probably would have got in real life for saving the day with their bravery. Incidents like that should be reflected in these rules somehow?

A guy popped in sometime back. Signed all his mail: “Dr. Osage.”

He had a set of rules to award medals. But he disappeared…

Hi Doc wherefore art thou?

Mailed him a number of times, but got no response – Maybe someone else want to do something about medals/patches/favor for heroics…? Could be a nice add-on.

Nice AAR there Jaeger – wish more of the guys would post an AAR once in a while.

SuperSulo

In July you will notice that you can no longer carry on with the above Inf Co… it no longer exist."

Is that correct? I can buy a Infantry Company (Motorized), under Motorized Infantry Battalion (Pz)'41 for 343 pts, Division Mechanized, in July too.

Just checked again – in fact you can buy it right through to Dec. Don’t know where I got that idea from – must’ve changed the Mech to something when I checked it the first time…

Fixed – line replaced with:

If you have a favorite Inf. Co that you would prefer to deploy or, down the line, you want to upgrade your company or armor to something else – Do so. BCR is designed to enable and in fact encourage you, to do just that.

Wow!! Sudden upsurge of mails and posts – can’t keep up – patience - I’ll get there…

[Biltong]

Apache mailed some of his Grog acquaintances about the topic: “Moving from Green to Vet in a Campaign”

“…the experience gain of troops is currently under debate. Main issue, given the confines of the game, is how long would it take (Axis) troops to move through from green to crack? The 'rules' being devised do, to some extent, take account of platoon dilution with replacements etc…

Received this reply from Andreas Biermann – If you don’t know him… He’s an uber-Grog

“This is a very complex topic, and I will not be able to do it justice in this email. With that said, sorry to have to rain on your parade here a little bit. None of my readings indicate that the German forces got better at what they did over the course of the war in Russia. Quite the opposite in fact. When the Wehrmacht invaded in June 1941 it was at the height of its proficiency. The lessons learned in France a year earlier had been absorbed to a large degree, with new infantry training incorporating them. The mechanised arm was stronger, and the theory of armoured operations had been improved. On the tactical level, the German soldier had been trained long and hard.

>From June 1941 onwards then, the proficiency of the Wehrmacht drop to reach its lowpoint in 1945. The drop was faster at some times then it was at others, and at some points it may have stopped and slightly recovered, but the first hand evidence in the form of German reports that I have seen (I have not studied this topic exhaustively though) makes it clear that the notion of a green Wehrmacht invading and becoming crack in the process is completely misplaced. The opposite happened. if you care about realism in your campaign, you start with Vet/Reg troops, and the reward for good play should be that they do not lose combat efficiency as quickly as they otherwise would. I.e. if you are lucky they are still vet in October 1941, but if you were very profligate, they will just be green.

Evidence in support I have would be histories of 13. PD, 12.PD, and a study by the 1a of XXXXVIII. AK (Gebirgs) on operations in Autumn 1941. That just from memory, I am sure if I dig I find more.

All the best,

Andreas

My reply might give you guys an idea of where BCR is heading

Thanx Andreas,

This confirms what I have read though the years - even the best were killed eventually and the replacement quality kept on dropping...

And not bad news either: it makes for a more interesting campaign because it will get progressively more difficult as the years go on.

The rules cater for this quite easily - I just set the modifiers for each year to make the chances of getting good replacements more and more remote... Ending with the final weeks in Berlin with heavily outnumbered; out of ammo; unfit & decimated conscripts taking on Vets - should be a blast! Heh heh... But by then the players should be able to handle it (I hope)

Go well & thanx for your time

Biltong

[Eden Smallwood]

Originally posted by Biltong:

As for the ‘No Minor Victory listed’ on the Favor Sheet…. Somewhere I got the idea that Minor Vic/defeat was changed to ‘Tactical’…? It’s been so long since I’ve been able to play – you guys will have to help me out here… Do you get both Tactical and Minor Defeat/Vic or just Minor Def/Vic?

All those results are distinguished in the game, but the 'Minors' are not listed on the Favor sheet. It was said in a much earlier post that Minor would be considered 'Tactical', but it would certainly be wise for BCR constructs to "match" CMBB constructs whenever possible, so Minors should be listed there, even if it is decided to grant the same exact points for Minor as Tactical. If only so it would take less explaining for newbies- fewer surprises are good.

On the note of 'matching' CMBB and the subject of experience gain, the book of all wisdom, page 146, "Experience", gives the impression that going from Green to Regular is just a matter of getting dirt in your face a couple times, but a Veteran however is someone with "first class training and/or proven themselves in combat [...] long combat histories".

Should we not take CMBB as our guide, whenever it or the manual seem pertinent, and in this case advance Greens to Regular with a small amount of battle, but have a heck of a time, (either duration or performance), getting from Regular to Veteran...? Just a thought.

Eden

[Biltong]

Claude McDaniel- the Scalpel mails this – very interesting reading:

”I looked at the quality of the replacements for casualties, and conclude

that before October 1941, units in the infantry company will most likely NOT

reach Veteran status or keep it for long if they do. Starting in October

though, the more casualties you suffer, the faster your unit reaches Veteran

status.

The key to my thinking is the average number of casualties units suffer, and

how long they go between losses. If a unit suffers very few casualties, or

goes for a long time between those losses, then the quality of the

replacements does not have a major effect on overall experience gain. If

however, the loss events are frequent, or large, then the average

replacement quality governs the unit skill level.

How often do infantry suffer casualties? Using the Core sheets from my

instance of the campaign (seven battles in six weeks), I find 19 line

entries (units) in a motorized infantry company. I totaled the number of

units with casualties (44), and the number of units on the battle field (19

units x 7 battles = 133). 44/133 gives an average chance for a unit to

receive casualties during a battle at 33 percent. As rule of thumb then,

every three battles a unit suffers loss and gets replacements.

How many replacements? The company suffered 100 casualties in the campaign,

for an average loss of (100/44=) 2.27 troops per incident.

So, every three battles a unit loses two soldiers. What happens under the

above conditions to a unit trying to go from Regular (25 experience points

before battle) to Veteran?

First determine the average point value of the available replacements. I

used the values from your email to figure this. (Tables copied at bottom of

document for convenience)

Average experience level (Points) of replacements in 1941

Jun-Jul 12

Aug-Sep 14

Oct-Dec 16

Finally, how many experience points does a unit gain in a battle? I assume

that most infantry units will neither kill tanks (one instance in the seven

battles I fought) nor rattle (8 percent rate in the campaign to date).

Therefore, on the average a unit gains a net of one experience point (plus

casualties) per battle.

So the situation is a unit with before battle experience of 25, gaining one

point from battle, and losing two troops. Computing the experience point

change:

In June, 12 x 2 + ( (8x25) + 2 +1 ) = 23. Darn, didn't make it!

Come December, 16 x 2 + ( (8x25) + 2 + 1 ) = 24. Shucks, still did not get

the promotion!

As long as units take average casualties, they will NOT advance beyond

Regular. In fact, the greater the difference between a unit's current

experience and that of the average replacement level, the faster the unit

returns to the average replacement level once casualties start hitting

again.

But if we burn Favor to increase the replacement experience die roll, what

happens then?

Average experience level (Points) of replacements in 1941, using Favor:

Jun-Jul 14

Aug-Sep 16

Oct-Dec 26

Now we are getting somewhere! Starting in October, using Favor, the average

replacement quality is enough that casualties do NOT drag a unit below the

threshold. In fact, they reward the commander for losing troops, since the

normal replacements are Veterans to start.

I hope this is of use to you, and that I did not make a glaring error.

Sincerely,

Claude

56 Normal Replacements

Die Points

<3 5

3-8 10

9+ 25

Experience Modifiers:

Aug - Sept +1; Oct - Dec +2

Experience

Titles Point Range

Conscript 0-4

Green 5-10

Regular 11-25

Veteran 26-60

Crack 61+”

Just what I needed Claude: Facts to 'tune' with...

Hmmm Good and bad news - the Oct ease of getting to Vet will need adjustment - that's not what I want. (Just scheduled that) Did you factor in that if the CO starts losing men to get better replacements he will also lose Favor, which will then make it difficult to get Vet replacements? … LOL Round & round we go – fine tune time

But the good news is that the various rules & modifiers are starting to mesh and create the campaign that I (and I believe others) would like to have:

To summarize:

1) Mostly difficult to get to Vet or hold on to Vet quality because progressively crappier replacements keep on dropping your Quality

2) You need to become a Hot CO (win and get Favor) if you want to get the best replacements.... OR if you lose too much, your troop quality will drop to such a low level that you will suffer.

3) Winning/Favor becomes very important... and this will force guys to be very accurate (in BCR terms) when evaluating their own capabilities...

This is the real crux of what I hope to achieve:

If players lose too much their position will become untenable quite fast... If their own capabilities do not progress in step with the campaign they will have 2 options:

1) To re-evaluate their own capabilities and downgrade themselves a notch or, HOPEFULLY

2) Start learning proper tactics - search the board/websites/read books/get the strategy guide etc. etc. All the info is out there…

This 2nd option will be virtually forced on the players since:

BCR will become progressively more difficult from 41 to 45

The reasons:

That's what happened.

That's also how any game should be: if it gets easier it becomes boring. A game, just like any play/book/movie MUST end in a climax... Not that the ‘difficulty incline’ needs to be regular – a straight line – far from it. Variation is key… an interlude/romantic pause/a dance routine and in BCR terms: breathing space must be provided… Was provided by history as well… All good stories have things going right before they go horribly wrong and then: right again?

You will have to learn as you progress or you will eventually run out of downgrade options.

BCR will become progressively more difficult from 41 to 45

That rule is, I'm quite happy to say, unlikely to change.

Off course - if you're not into realism/study etc. you can always give yourself an extra platoon of Tigers

Biltong

[Biltong]

”The night of the Grogs” J

Michael Dorosh gave his kind permission to post this as well:

Hello all

Apologies for not responding sooner. My silence has not been due to disinterest; quite the opposite, I have been purposely avoiding the Biltong threads because my own set of campaign rules - specifically tied to the GD Division - is simmering on a back burner and I didn't want to be influenced by Biltong's work subconsciously (I would not consciously, of course, want to duplicate his efforts or steal his ideas).

Having said that, I will give my two cents here for what they are worth. Steve and Charles are right about campaign rules being unrealistic, with regards to units elevating themselves over the course of a "campaign" - which in real terms might mean a few weeks. Nonetheless, it is a fun idea and one I plan to incorporate - how, I do not know. But I am reasonably sure that any treatment of experience-level gain would be 'for fun' as there is no way of getting any kind of historical yardstick by which to measure troop performance in this manner.

Firstly, you have no definition of what a "veteran" is. The GD Regiment didn't see combat in Poland, for example, yet in May 1940 performed in an above average manner. They had a cadre of NCOs and men from the Infantry Lehr regiment - the training and demonstration unit for the entire German Army prewar. In CM terms, I would consider them "veterans" despite not having seen a shot fired in action. Even the CM manual cautions against applying too strict a definition of "crack" and "elite".

I would tend to treat this in a very abstract manner. One could go insane trying to factor in individual troop replacements, the state of the training army (basic training decreased to 8 weeks by 1944, down from 16 weeks in 1939 - but did it affect combat prowess? Drill and ceremonial was replaced entirely, but then again, many new weapons systems had to be learned - ie Anti tank mines, Panzerfauste, etc. so was the 8 weeks really a dilution, or was it an acceptable streamlining?), overall formation morale, individual experiences (does time in the line count towards an experience gain? Can it be tied to individual unit kills as handily tracked by CM AARs now - and if so, is that realistic? The answer is No, it's not, but it does provide a convenient and tantalizing yardstick by which to measure unit performance, from which experience can be extrapolated....)

I don't like the "veteran", "green", "elite" labels anyway - the difference between a "regular" and a "veteran" troop to my mind is mostly tied to experience, but the difference between regular/veteran and "elite", by way of standard definition, is in the training and equipment. I would rate 12th SS Hitler Youth division as elite by way of their training and the cadre of LAH NCOs they had, for example, but in Normandy the rank and file were hopelessly "green" in terms of experience (and also Fanatic, to throw another factor into the equation). Yet to use "green" troops and "elite" HQ units in CM would not give historical performance. The answer must lie elsewhere.

To try and apply these labels across the German Army in a broad brush will yield disappointing results. Some units - be they the first line panzer units, or the 1944 model Infantry Divisions - were simply better than others. I don't think these units ever moved from "green" to "crack" at all - they were either very good or simply average, and they tended to stay there - many divisions simply weren't around very long either, mind, being destroyed, and in some cases, reformed to fight again. The GD Division was reformed almost from scratch several times in WW II, having suffered appalling casualties. In game terms, I don't think it matters then what system you apply, it will be patently false.

BUT - since the main idea is to have fun, you can pretty much do whatever you like, and if it "feels" right, you have completed your mission. I wouldn't try and find any basis in reality for it - it was because no such basis exists that Steve and Charles abandoned the idea to begin with!

Good luck, Biltong, you have a very loyal and vocal following. I glanced briefly at Wreck's rules many months ago and was impressed with what I saw. I certainly applaud any and all efforts to bring some sort of system to CM, as it provides an element that is sorely lacking (no matter how ahistorical). I'm gratified to see your rules have developed so much interest - perhaps someday it will form a part of CM itself, with no need for written side rules, dice rolls or other impedimena. Until then, it is up to the CM community. Wish I could help more. If I can help with any strictly historical issues, I'd be more than willing to participate in discussions along with the other learned members of the board/this email group.

Mike

Thanx Mike

You are confirming the direction that we're taking with our exp gain 'solution'...

Obviously our 'solution' is far from historically accurate - we are working with averages over the whole Southern front, but we try... Input like your's make it easier. Much appreciated.

As for your comment: "I didn't want to be influenced by Biltong's work subconsciously" I know what you mean and I agree... It would be better to do your campaign without any preconceived notions and break new ground. However, once you have finished yours, you are most welcome to view and "steal" some ideas (if you could use any, that is ... In fact I'm encouraging the players to come up with variations/changes/add-ons, whatever they can think up....

Like all great games, CMBB lends itself to a surprising number of 'add-ons'.

As for a campaign - I think you will find it quite easy - the host of parameters make the designer's work quite easy - In fact, in a couple of instances I had to cut down on the use of some parameters because they were canceling each other out LOL

Good luck with your' GD Div campaign - I'm very curious to see what you come up with. Concentrating on a single Div should enable you to be far more accurate, historically speaking than, BCR... Besides the fun factor, it should make for a very interesting History lesson... I hope you'll find the time to do it.

Biltong

[Biltong]

Originally posted by Eden Smallwood:

All those results are distinguished in the game, but the 'Minors' are not listed on the Favor sheet. It was said in a much earlier post that Minor would be considered 'Tactical', but it would certainly be wise for BCR constructs to "match" CMBB constructs whenever possible, so Minors should be listed there, even if it is decided to grant the same exact points for Minor as Tactical. If only so it would take less explaining for newbies- fewer surprises are good.

On the note of 'matching' CMBB and the subject of experience gain, the book of all wisdom, page 146, "Experience", gives the impression that going from Green to Regular is just a matter of getting dirt in your face a couple times, but a Veteran however is someone with "first class training and/or proven themselves in combat [...] long combat histories".

Should we not take CMBB as our guide, whenever it or the manual seem pertinent, and in this case advance Greens to Regular with a small amount of battle, but have a heck of a time, (either duration or performance), getting from Regular to Veteran...? Just a thought.

Eden

Eden,

Damn! So we have both Minor and Tactical... Now which is greater? What would be the difference? I imagine I better take this to the big board...

As for your comments re matching CMBB - exactly my thoughts as well, why try and re-research something that the best has already done

The new Appendix A (v1.4 coming Fri)should put your mind at rest

< 5 Consc

5 - 9 Green nice and short

10 - 24 Reg

25 - 60 Vet

61+ Crack

Thanx Eden - seeing more and more posts from you - feedback much appreciated

Biltong

[Ichthys]

I was wondering about how people are using favor in these rules. Specifically, are you spending your favor points before rolling the die, or are you using favor as a way to 'improve' the result only if you don't like the original roll?

I don't see anything in the current rules about whether the use of favor must be committed to before rolling, but in Wreck's rules I found the following:

"Whenever you use favor to influence a die roll, you must commit to using points before rolling the die. Spending them allows you to change the die roll by up to one."

I suspect that the use of the auto-parameters sheet might have an influence on this. It's a little hard with the auto-parameters to not notice what the results are before deciding whether to spend favor to influence a result.

When commiting to use favor before the roll, it seems to me that sometimes a +1/-1 influence won't provide you any options -- should you still lose your favor in this case?

-Andy