DP LMG ammo load

[John Kettler]

Don't have the game myself, but I came across this tidbit while reading Drabkin's Panzer Killers page 186. Ammo load = 8 x drum carried by asst. gunner in two x 4-drum boxes. 47 rounds/drum (per the Wiki) = 376 rounds. The interviewee, A. V. Rogachev, first served as a DP gunner. He says he carried the gun, but it seems reasonable, to me, at least, to presume he had a loaded drum on it already and that the asst. gunner had the remaining ammo. If so, the total ammo load = 423 rounds. It might be interesting to see how the veteran's numbers do or don't track with what CMRT shows.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 1, 2017 by John Kettler

[Fredrocker]

377 as of here but 235 for the LMG I beleive...

 

Fredrocker's Combat-Mission Site

Edited June 1, 2017 by Fredrocker

[John Kettler]

Fredrocker,

Concur. The 142 is PPSh41 ammo. Consequently, if your DP team is at full load, then it's short 141 rounds presuming only 4 x drums total and 188 if what I've posited with 5 x drums total is correct. BFC would appear to need a rethink on DP team LMG ammo load.

Regards.

John Kettler

Edited June 1, 2017 by John Kettler

[Fredrocker]

Yes the unit is at 'Full' Ammo...  very interesting fact, I just ordered the book from Amazon... thanks for the post...

 

Fredrocker's Combat Mission Site

[John Kettler]

Fredrocker,

It's an excellent, insightful and moving book, for it puts a human face on a branch of the Red Army which knew nothing but murderous casualties throughout the war. Beware, though, there is a jarring element which occurs in several places in the book. APDS is listed where "Arrowhead" aka HVAP aka APCR aka PzGr40 or "T" in CM would be. As a technically knowledgeable reader, this was repeatedly disruptive to my information intake.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 2, 2017 by John Kettler

[Amizaur]

Sorry for off-topic, but I couldn't resist when you said about "puttingf a human face"...

Recenlty I watched a documentary about IS-2 tank. The document was not especially interesting, but one thing suddenly touched me. There was some veteran talking about the tank, and suddenly they showed a few seconds of monochrome footage showing those young boys inside their tank, moving and laughing. They were so young.... Suddenly I saw those people who fought and died in those tanks. It was very moving for me. I watched A LOT of WW2 videos, but never felt so... connected ? With those people. Maybe it is so because I personally was inside an old rusty IS-2 tank -  in the same place, the same seat, where this young man sits.  So I could easily visualise myself on his place, or next to him, 70 years ago...

The original footage of young men inside an IS-1 (it's an Is-1 probably, because they seem to load an 85mm shells) begins about  16:18 nd lasts only few seconds. The inside of tank is painted white.

In the video there is also a story of an IS-2M tank pulled from a swamp after 60 years. It's an IS-2M because added side stowage bins above tracks are visible. So it was probably lost in post-war times, after 1954.

Original tank was is late type IS-2, with single-piece glacis and wide gun mantlet. The mantlet itself is massive, one-piece casting, thicker in central part. Never seen such mantlet before, it's something in between typical IS-2 mantlet and IS-3 mantlet in shape. Evolution, I guess. Wonder if it's war-time produced, or maybe it was replaced later for some reason. This mantlet seems to provide much better protection than typical IS-2  mantlets I've seen so far.

Again, sorry for off-topic :).

Edited June 2, 2017 by Amizaur

[Machor]

@Amizaur

Thank you for sharing the video!

I think the footage that moved you is from inside a T-34/76. They're using it in the documentary because the veteran is telling how the gunner would make the driver stop the tank to take aim by kicking him from behind. The footage itself is quite fascinating, as it seems to show the T-34/76's commander/gunner practically 'driving' the tank by using the driver's shoulders as pedals - anyone seeing potential here for a one-player T-34/76 simulator?  The cameraman must have been filming from the assistant driver's seat.

If you could confirm that the footage is actually from inside the IS-1 that too would be fascinating, as I have never seen that 'rare' tank on film.

[DMS]

8 drums - too optimistic. May be double load. 4 is more realistic number, 1 in MG and 4 in assistant's box. So 5x47=235 in the game - correct.

And sometimes drums were lost or broken.

[Amizaur]

I wanted to write that I'm sure it's an IS tank, but I'm not anymore :). There should be 3 people in the turret, not two. The turret seems "roomy" but that may be just an illusion. The shell loaded is a bit small for an 85mm, but I have to check that. I'll try to verify the hatches in the turret and other visible details, which tank are from.

Anyway, the point is - after seeing this clip, now every time a T-34 is killed in CM, I will feel that this young boy from gunner's seat just died....  :/

Edited June 3, 2017 by Amizaur

[Machor]

I think I have a positive ID! 

Pause the video at 16:34, and you can clearly see the loader's armoured glass viewing port and pistol port - that rules out the IS. The loader's hatch is also visible, which rules out T-34 variants before the M1942. So, we're looking at either T-34/76 M1942, or T-34/85.

If you study the seating arrangement of the T-34/85 closely, you can see it's impossible to have a camera angle showing the gunner's face that wouldn't at least show the commander's legs, and probably torso as well. The other evidence in favour of the T-34/76 is, as you've mentioned, the shell size. While I failed to find a picture of someone holding the 76mm shell, the following picture shows the size of the 85mm relative to a man, which is significantly larger than the one in the footage:

Now, while the white interior of the turret combined with poor lighting and film quality may well be creating an illusion, I do share your concern that the turret interior lacks the angles that one would expect in a vanilla T-34/76 M1942 turret. I therefore suspect that this is a T-34/76 M1942 with the ChTZ turret! Unfortunately, I failed to find any pictures showing the interior of the ChTZ turret.

While the ChTZ part is speculative, I feel that we can positively ID the vehicle as a T-34/76 M1942, which leaves us with the fascinating 'discovery' that the T-34/76 commander/gunner could 'drive' the tank as well. I think this deserves a thread of its own. 

In the meantime, some more young Soviet tankers with buddies...

[Machor]

12 hours ago, DMS said:

So 5x47=235 in the game - correct.

For what it's worth, the Russian Wikipedia article on the DP states that the gunner's assistant carried three drum magazines in a box:

"Пулемёт обслуживали два человека: стрелок и его помощник, который переносил короб с 3 дисками."

And all three 1/6 scale DP/DPM gunner action figures that have been released by Dragon to date have come with a pouch for a second magazine:

So yes, in between the 'authority' of Wikipedia and Dragon 1/6 military action figures we have 3 magazines with the assistant + 2 magazines with the gunner = 5 magazines. 

This isn't to say that JK's source is incorrect - given the very long time it took to load DP magazines, it would've been entirely logical for a CO to order his gunner assistants to carry extra magazines in lieu of their personal weapons and ammo - I, for sure, would've given such an order. 

[Amizaur]

"I feel that we can positively ID the vehicle as a T-34/76 M1942"  -  I came to the same conclusions :), not an Is but T-34/76 model with a cast turret.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Thought it might be a KV-1 m.1942, but finally caught a glimpse of the loader's hatch after several viewings.....Concur with the above. 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[DMS]

20 hours ago, Machor said:

For what it's worth, the Russian Wikipedia article on the DP states that the gunner's assistant carried three drum magazines in a box:

"Пулемёт обслуживали два человека: стрелок и его помощник, который переносил короб с 3 дисками."

And all three 1/6 scale DP/DPM gunner action figures that have been released by Dragon to date have come with a pouch for a second magazine:

So yes, in between the 'authority' of Wikipedia and Dragon 1/6 military action figures we have 3 magazines with the assistant + 2 magazines with the gunner = 5 magazines. This isn't to say that JK's source is incorrect - given the very long time it took to load DP magazines, it would've been entirely logical for a CO to order his gunner assistants to carry extra magazines in lieu of their personal weapons and ammo - I, for sure, would've given such an order. 

Not a simple question. There were metal boxes for 4 drums. And there were pouches, I don't know for 3 or 4 drums. In any case, actual number varied, as some drums were lost. I read about case, when machiengunners had only 1 drum! In case if all drums were empty, gunner could make single shots, assistant gave him round by round.

[Machor]

I have searched the internets for the 4 drum box and could not find it mentioned anywhere... The 3 drum box is solidly confirmed - this one was for sale from Moscow:

The store's page has more info on the item [in Russian]:

https://derr.su/perenoska-dlya-diskovyh-magazinov-pulemeta-dp-27-dp-20-2813.html

There is a post on Reddit that claims the gunner's assistant carried two of these boxes, which would be close to JK's source. The same post discusses how for the Lewis, which the DP replaced, the drums were carried on a vest that could hold 8 magazines, which might have caused a confusion in JK's source. Here's the link to that Reddit post:

 

5 hours ago, DMS said:

In case if all drums were empty, gunner could make single shots, assistant gave him round by round.

Reminds me of the days I used to go after German soldiers with the PTRD in Red Orchestra. 

[MikeyD]

Why are there six men sitting on that T34-85 M1943? Photos like that are usually assumed to be of a tank crew with their tank. So six is too many. Another oddity, there's no roof panoramic sight over the gunner's station.

[Holman]

11 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Why are there six men sitting on that T34-85 M1943? Photos like that are usually assumed to be of a tank crew with their tank. So six is too many. Another oddity, there's no roof panoramic sight over the gunner's station.

I've seen WW2 pics of all nationalities with larger-than-crew groups posing on or around one tank--enough that I've wondered the same thing.

I would guess that they are friends from the same unit posing together, and they just picked one tank to do it with.  Or perhaps you sometimes see a tank crew posing with their platoon or company (troop, whatever) leaders.  Or maybe the mechanics feel attached to the crew, etc.

[Machor]

19 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Why are there six men sitting on that T34-85 M1943?

That's why I wrote "tankers with buddies." 

21 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Another oddity, there's no roof panoramic sight over the gunner's station.

Quoting this site on that particular tank:

"Here is another rare tank. A T-34-85 with a D-5-T, and a commander's RSB-F radio! Only 5 were produced." 

[John Kettler]

DMS and Machor,

It's precisely this sort of thing which makes me want to giggle when someone's, however august, is presented as an "expert on WW II." Just to be sure, I rechecked page 186 of Panzer Killers to ensure I hadn't misread, miscopied or both what I'd said.  I got it dead right this time, at least. Surely, somewhere there must be some sort of prescribed load for a DP team? There is, of course, the possibility that the translator, Stuart Britton, made a mistake. For sure, there's one regarding the repeated jarring references. in the various accounts, to "APDS" when describing "Arrowhead," which, from the description of it early in the book, is APCR, HVAP or PzGr40, depending on which nation you invoke.

John Kettler

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by John Kettler