Having trouble with Cqc fighting

[MrGhosty]

Hello, Combat Mission: Black Sea is my first combat  mssion, and I've been enjoying it quite alot :). However, even after a couple months and learning all the units, tactics, and nations that come with this game I can't seem to understand how urban combat is suppose to be done right, more  specifically, cqc fighting between infantry squads.I have no troubles pushing into a town, using a vast amount of fire support for suppression and smoke is easy to advance into cites and villages and I can deal with small houses. But everything seems to break down when i use my infantry and breach squads into larger buildings. Even when I've done a hefty amount of suppression using bmp's, tanks and MG teams, the enemy stragglers that survived the overwhelming firepower seem to kill my entire squad when they go into the building. Which is quite frustrating, Am I doing something wrong with my orders? How should I move my soldiers into buildings(slow,move,quick,fast,assault,etc)? Should I be splitting up my squads into teams? I really don't understand infantry cqc so it would be great if someone could help me out., Thanks!                                                                                                 

[womble]

Some general pointers. They're based on experience in the WW2 titles, but the principles should still apply; holes in technique will just be punished much more harshly by the prevalence of automatic weapons in the opposition's squads.

First-off: be absolutely sure you absolutely have to make a dynamic entry on the objective. Most of the time you can shoot the enemy out of the building, or kill them in place or there's an alternative position you can use that is not directly opposed. But if you have to close on the enemy and destroy them:

Generally, yes, you "should" be splitting your squads into teams. While the weapons loadout of a modern squad might suggest that an even split ("Split Squad") is the way to go, you might find that it's still worth splitting using "Assault Team" first, to make sure one team has a good supply of grenades, since willingness to expend special equipment like grenades is based at least partially on how much of that resource the element has available. In general, buildings are too small for a full squad to safely exist within; a single grenade (thrown or rifle) will inflict multiple casualties on a squad crammed into one room.

In order for a team to use the grenades they have to soften up the objective, it's advisable for them to stop outside the objective building for 10-15s, with a Target order into the building. If they have plenty of grenades, they'll toss these inside, and a subsequent immediate entry will find the defenders suppressed and cowering, generally. You can use a team other than the one which will make entry to throw grenades, but that can be difficult to coordinate when a turn break isn't conveniently available.

Personally, I tend to use Slow movement for the assaulting team. I find that the high situational awareness (which in building entry doesn't seem to be impaired by terrain) and willingness to stop and open/return fire makes the clearance more effective. It also has the advantages of keeping the team from quickly reaching the far side of the building where they will potentially be exposed to fire from the "next row" of houses which probably won't have been suppressed yet, and of potentially keeping them from being spotted by enemy in that row.

Once the team is in the building, I find it's worth giving them a short, circular Target Arc that covers the building and maybe its back yard. This is to prevent them recklessly opening fire on enemies they spot in the "next row", who may not have spotted them (because they snuck into their current location). Having the TA extend a bit past the building is to allow them to engage enemies which are discovered at very close range, who will probably spot the assaulting team anyway and might be in a position to do serious damage.

Demo charges are marvellous for FISH. If you can approach the objective from a blind side (an adjoining building is ideal), the blast will suppress enemy in the next building very effectively, and will likely inflict casualties. Be aware though, that if the objective building is very large, there may be enemy far enough away to not be affected by the Blast. Also, be very aware of the levels on which the buildings are placed. An unfortunate limitation of the engine is that you will not be able to pass through a Blasted party wall if the two buildings are on different levels, and your engineers will path around the outside to make their entry, which could be disastrous.

Some pitfalls:

Possibly the most annoying pitfall is the presence of troops which have fallen back out of the objective (due to your suppression pressure), but which remain just outside the "lee" of the building. They are well placed to shoot your assaulting team down like fish in a barrel if they have recovered from the morale state which had them withdraw and haven't been suppressed by fires passing through the building. I'm not sure of the best advice to give in this case.

Enemy on adjacent floors can be a nuisance. It's probably worth spreading the suppression love out a bit, vertically as well.

Friendly fire from small arms of the base of fire won't, generally cause casualties, but it will build suppression. So don't have your assaulting team hang about for too long outside while you're still pouring in the fire. They obviously need time to do their own preparatory fires, but it's probably worth trying to step down the incoming in the seconds before the assaulters arrive to stack outside the door, as well as only waiting 10-15s for grenades to be thrown.

Friendly fire from anything .50cal or larger, any HE from other elements and small calibre fire from firendlies that haven't spotted the team (this is a recently-discovered phenomenon) will cause casualties as well as suppression, so be very cautious about how you use them for support once you send in the clearing team.

Not only does the objective need to be suppressed, but since your assaulting team is going to be exposed while chucking grenades, so do any positions which pose a danger to them at that point. This can sometimes require broad coordination.

Hope this helps.

[Abbasid111]

The first rule of MOUT fighting is "Do I need to take this building"!

MOUT is very bloody, for both sides. If you don't have to have the building level it with CAS, artillery or tank fire.

Lay massive amounts of fire on it and make the enemy decide they would rather be someplace else.

Only assault and stack all the odds in your favor as Wombie described only if you really really have to have that building.

[John Kettler]

MrGhosty,

Welcome aboard!

I see you got some excellent advice, though womble's "FISH" threw me a bit, since I thought it was some MOUT acronym. When it comes to clearing a building, all it takes is one live enemy to ruin your day. Or thinking the enemy is pinned down or dead. I shot the daylights out of a lone building in CMBN Market Garden, then sent a squad in on Slow, so as not to make more targets for HMGs well behind it. This delighted the Germans outside in the back to such an extent that they killed practically every man who belly crawled in, leaving only but the last two men, still on my side of the house, alive. This is relevant because the force that did it had two MP40s and a Kar98K. In CMBS, defending as Russians, and in the face of the dreaded Abrams and Bradleys operating from standoff, fortunately with very acute LOS/LOF angles, I savaged a move into a real town by armed Hummers and infantry, despite having been hammered by their supporting armor. In an entire row of buildings, folIowing a lot of American suppressive fire, I had two functional men, one with an RPG, the other an AK. The defense held.

Just last night I was reading that the way to suppress the occupants of a building isn't to shoot at the building, but in the AS in front of it. In this way, it is possible to hit what may well be unhittable via a Target command on the building. I forget the details, but it was a workaround because of the way targeting works.  Someone will doubtless come along with the particulars. In any event, don't do this when the assault teams are at the base of the building! It's for earlier.

MOUT is a meat grinder, and if you don't do things with a great deal of attention to, well, everything, it is your troops who'll be turned into blood sausage. Much of what goes into MOUT, on both sides, isn't simulated. There are no buddy hoists, assault planks or grappling gear. Neither can the defender block stairwells with truck tires (not sure about barbed wire or mines), lay trip wires to take down men as they come through the door, or deploy other defensive nastiness.

My general playing style is intuitive, but MOUT requires just the opposite, for it's as by the numbers as it gets. How you conduct MOUT is also going to be a function of the ROEs for your force, as expressed in terms of how victory is assessed. The Russians, for example, would have no compunction about pulverizing a place with artillery first, but this would be poor form for the Americans to do to the buildings of their ally. Pay attention to any Preserve requirements.

You've gotten some great advice from others, and mine may or may not be useful to you, but I'd say you're already better off than you were before you posted and that others will doubtless chime in ere long, too.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited July 24, 2016 by John Kettler

[womble]

7 hours ago, John Kettler said:

...womble's "FISH" threw me a bit, since I thought it was some MOUT acronym.

It is: Fighting In Someone's House. British Armyism, I gather.

[John Kettler]

womble,

The FISH acronym is news to me, but much appreciated. After ultimately and wrongly deciding it wasn't a MOUT term, I thought you were being a bit playful by pointing out demo charges were great for fishing with explosives. I do find the acronym apt. 

Regards,

John Kettler

[MOS:96B2P]

On 7/24/2016 at 4:32 AM, womble said:

Some general pointers. <Snip> 

Personally, I tend to use Slow movement for the assaulting team. I find that the high situational awareness (which in building entry doesn't seem to be impaired by terrain) and willingness to stop and open/return fire makes the clearance more effective. It also has the advantages of keeping the team from quickly reaching the far side of the building where they will potentially be exposed to fire from the "next row" of houses which probably won't have been suppressed yet, and of potentially keeping them from being spotted by enemy in that row. <Snip> 

Another excellent and informative post by womble.  In my TacSOP I have the entry team use Quick to enter buildings after a 15 second Pause to throw grenades.  I will put this on my list of things to review since I am now curious if Slow has better results when an OpFor team is outside the rear wall of the entered room.  An OpFor team positioned this way is probably the biggest problem I encounter in a dynamic building entry.

  

On 7/24/2016 at 4:32 AM, womble said:

<Snip> 

Enemy on adjacent floors can be a nuisance. It's probably worth spreading the suppression love out a bit, vertically as well.

Friendly fire from small arms of the base of fire won't, generally cause casualties, but it will build suppression. <Snip>

@RockinHarry did some interesting tests with vertical suppression that showed units on floors 1 through 3 can be heavily suppressed by fire directed at the 1st floor (or the action spot in front of the first floor).  I replicated these results with my own experiments.  

On the turn that entry is to be made I have my base of fire teams switch from Target (Area) to Target Light (Area).     

[macjimm]

Very informative comments.  Thanks for the ideas

[Kinophile]

On 7/25/2016 at 2:44 AM, womble said:

It is: Fighting In Someone's House. British Armyism, I gather.

Yup.

Brits use simething different now I think, but I've been told that the initial idea behind it was to remind the soldiers that it is literally someone elses house, they know it better than you do, and ideally you want them on your side.