How come smoke rounds are not usuable

[Paulus]

Hi, i was wondering.

Why do offmap artillery and mortars loose their smoke rounds after emptying their HE? 

Only workaround is first firing smoke and second HE, wich is not as effective as first HE(prepare target) and second smoke(to screen friendlies during final assault). I could understand, in the arty case, that the propellant is used up. 

But mortar rounds carry propellant in the tail section, with optional extra rings, depending on range and angle. 

 

But onmap mortars + onmap infantry guns, seem to keep theirs. 

just wondering 

 

Regards 

[ASL Veteran]

The reason is that the game doesn't track independent piles of HE and Smoke artillery ammunition.  All ammunition can be used as HE unless you want to fire smoke.  If you want to fire smoke then there is an allocation for that, but since the smoke is not coming from a separate pile of ammunition once all your HE is gone then all your smoke is gone too.

[womble]

It has been asserted that this is the way support assets tracked their rounds in real life: you got assigned "units of fire" and the shooter didn't much care whether it was smoke or HE they sent downrange; 3rd Battalion got 100 lanyard pulls, and that was that...

[Paulus]

ok thanks for the responses, they sound logical to me!

regards paul

[Col Deadmarsh]

It has been asserted that this is the way support assets tracked their rounds in real life: you got assigned "units of fire" and the shooter didn't much care whether it was smoke or HE they sent downrange; 3rd Battalion got 100 lanyard pulls, and that was that...

 

If the commander of that arty battery thought that friendly forces might need smoke rounds, would they not save a few of those pulls just for that purpose?

I guess I don't understand how smoke rounds were distributed to these batteries in real life or how a "100 pull" order is carried out as it seems illogical not to save what you might need later.

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

But I suppose than in real life, you would be able to ask for your 100 lanyard pulls to be distributed between various missions at various times? In the game, you can only pre-plan one mission for each asset, even if that asset has hundreds of rounds available.

[womble]

But I suppose than in real life, you would be able to ask for your 100 lanyard pulls to be distributed between various missions at various times? 

Well you can in game too, by not using all your shells in one mission. Trickier with some asset/ammo supply combinations than others, and subject to call delays, but entirely feasible. You ask for the right shell type at the right time and it's the mission callers' responsibility to save what they might need later. Imagine the converse where a support module refused to fire those last rounds "because they might be needed for smoke". British 4.2" mortars have 120 rounds total, 80 of which may be used as smoke. Do you really want an asset with only 10 rounds per tube of HE?

Smoke is an option for you to use, not a right to have on top of the HE. Unfair or wrong as you may consider that to be, that's the way it works in the game, and it's not exactly difficult to adapt to. Nor is it entirely without historical merit, according to "lanyard pullers" who have made comments here based on their real life experience of how artillery support is organised.

Fire plan creation is certainly somewhat simplified, but there aren't many assets with "hundreds" of rounds available; they're mostly a bit over 100. If you want to design a scenario where the player can make complex fire plans, give the player lots of low-ammo modules of artillery. They can set up as complicated a first-fifteen-minutes plan as they like, then. If you want the fire plan to be able to be extended past the first 15 minutes, give them lots of TRPs as well; the short delay should be easy to build in to a fire plan built in the setup phase, though you run greater risks of the player neglecting to read your designer's notes and just using the modules as fast-response stonks, the more flexibility you give them in the fire plan. It'd work as an ersatz artillery FDC simulator though...

It would definitely be a lot easier to save some smoke for later if the game gave any indication whatsoever how many rounds will be fired once FFE is called, for a given weight, duration and tube count of mission. But then we all know the support interface needs a serious overhaul when the serious UI overhaul version of the engine is produced.

[Bulletpoint]

 

Fire plan creation is certainly somewhat simplified, but there aren't many assets with "hundreds" of rounds available; they're mostly a bit over 100.

Well, just as an anecdotal example, the final scenario in The Road to Montebourg gives you one battery of six 105-mm Priests, with a total of more than 400 shells between them. And when you let the computer buy your forces in quick battles, you often end up with several modules of 81mm mortars with 150 rounds, as well as batteries of 60mm mortars with more than 300 rounds.

As I understand it, it's a gameplay decision not to let the player be too flexible with his pre-planning of artillery. Just like you can't make a box shaped strike. It's to hamstring the players a bit.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[womble]

Well, just as an anecdotal example, the final scenario in The Road to Montebourg gives you one battery of six 105-mm Priests, with a total of more than 400 shells between them. And when you let the computer buy your forces in quick battles, you often end up with several modules of 81mm mortars with 150 rounds, as well as batteries of 60mm mortars with more than 300 rounds.

I think the 6-Priest battery is the only one with more than one-and-a-fraction hundred rounds. n modules of 81mm can fire n pre-planned missions. Where did you find the 60mm module with 300 rounds?

As I understand it, it's a gameplay decision not to let the player be too flexible with his pre-planning of artillery. Just like you can't make a box shaped strike. It's to hamstring the players a bit.

I reckon it's half because they don't want the game to be an arty simulator, half because making it 100% accurate would mean dialling the non-pre-planned missions flexibility down about a metric butt-load, and half because making it be an arty simulator would be a lot of work. And you can make a box-shaped strike, if you have several elements. Just like you can effectively have a series of pre-planned strikes if you use TRPs.

[JonS]

If the commander of that arty battery thought that friendly forces might need smoke rounds, would they not save a few of those pulls just for that purpose?

That decision is not up to the battery commander. It is up to the supported arms commander which is ... you! If you want smoke, you need to ensure you reserve the needed number of rounds. Which makes sense, given that you are the one playing the game

Edited December 2, 2015 by JonS

[bruno2016]

On 11/30/2015 at 2:26 PM, womble said:

Smoke is an option for you to use, not a right to have on top of the HE. Unfair or wrong as you may consider that to be, that's the way it works in the game, and it's not exactly difficult to adapt to. Nor is it entirely without historical merit, according to "lanyard pullers" who have made comments here based on their real life experience of how artillery support is organised.

 

Hello. Then how come the opposite is true? If I have 60 HE rounds and 30 smoke rounds (typically 3 Wespe's like in the Conrath's counterattack campaign in CMFI), if I first fire the smokeall 60 HE rounds remain available. 

[Warts 'n' all]

Perhaps is is because you're firing from a vehicle with a set number of warheads on board.