Changes to scout team and the assault command

[stealthsilent1]

When I started playing cmbn, I always used to play in real time, because it tested my ability to pay attention. And I used to play big maps and small maps, and I loved splitting up the teams into scout teams and assault teams. But one thing that I didn't like was that if you had a large squad, and you split it up into a number of different assault teams, or whatever. Why can't you use the assault command with the 4 man assault team? I tried seeing on combat mission Afghanistan and cmbn, if this was a bug, and I tested to see if there was a minimum amount of men required to use the assault command, and I found out that the minimum limit is below 4, maybe at 3 or 2. I tested this by starting off with a full squad of men with about 12 men, and used them until their numbers went down to 4, and I was still able to use the assault command and their numbers went down to 3, and they still worked with the assault command. But if I split a squad up to form an assault team, the assault command never works. And I'm wondering why. Is it a historical thing? And if it is, will cmbs change to make it so that you can use the assault command, because of the smaller group and higher c2. The assault command is extremely useful when I'm assaulting houses and buildings and saves me a lot of time from having to micromanage 2 units, when I can just use the assault command with one.

And one more thing, I'm looking forward to the drones in cmbs, because I think it will save me from a lot of scout lives being wasted. Because I also wondered, why isn't there a 1 man scout team? It would save me 50% of my men and I would be 50% harder to spot. I only need one set of eyes to scout anyway. It's that 2 men split away from my squad is a big deal, when I only need one guy to scout. I mean it's the same thing, if 2 scouts get ambushed, what's the difference how many scouts die, it's not like anyone is going to get back to relay the information.

[DreDay]

And one more thing, I'm looking forward to the drones in cmbs, because I think it will save me from a lot of scout lives being wasted. Because I also wondered, why isn't there a 1 man scout team? It would save me 50% of my men and I would be 50% harder to spot. I only need one set of eyes to scout anyway. It's that 2 men split away from my squad is a big deal, when I only need one guy to scout. I mean it's the same thing, if 2 scouts get ambushed, what's the difference how many scouts die, it's not like anyone is going to get back to relay the information.

 

Well there are multiple reasons for scout teams having 2-6 men in most modern armed forces. For one thing, it allows them to to be on watch duty 24/7 with (at least) one scout staying awake when the others rest... On top of that, you generally need at least 3 men to cover a 270 degree area for obeservation while moving.. plus you need extra men for overwatch, medical aid, extra ammo, RTO duty and a whole host of other tasks...Think about it this way - if you were assigned scout duty... would you rather do it alone or with a couple of buddies that you can trust your life with?

[A Canadian Cat]

Why can't you use the assault command with the 4 man assault team?

 

<snip>

 

And I'm wondering why. Is it a historical thing?

 

I believe the answer is the assault command works by using two fire teams who cover each other while the other moves forward.  So for it to work you need two fire teams.  Infantry squads normally train with two or perhaps three (depending on the army and the time period) fire teams.  The game represents this with the two (or sometimes three) columns of icons that represent the squad.  Those are not an accident of convenience they represent the fire teams.  So if you peal off a scout team they now make up on fire team and that leaves one other fire team for the rest. Now the remaining 6 or 7 man team is not able to use the assault command because it is one team.

 

So it is a combination of tactical doctrine and game mechanics.

 

That's my thought anyway.

[stealthsilent1]

Well there are multiple reasons for scout teams having 2-6 men in most modern armed forces. For one thing, it allows them to to be on watch duty 24/7 with (at least) one scout staying awake when the others rest... On top of that, you generally need at least 3 men to cover a 270 degree area for obeservation while moving.. plus you need extra men for overwatch, medical aid, extra ammo, RTO duty and a whole host of other tasks...Think about it this way - if you were assigned scout duty... would you rather do it alone or with a couple of buddies that you can trust your life with?

Yea but then how "realistic" is combat mission anyway? Is it a tactical simulator or is it a, (life of a soldier) simulator, I mean they can't include every single detail into combat mission, it would be stupid and I wouldnt want to play it, it would be too boring. I mean, what do you put into the game and what do you take out of it. If it's just a tactical simulator, what does it matter to me a 270 degree area, I can't integrate that into the game, the units are allowed only to face one direction, and what does it matter all the other side tasks like medical aid and sleeping. It's a tactical simulator, my guys are only out for a few hours, one guy is easier to hide than 2+, plus I don't need anyone to lead them, it's just that guy, leadership wouldn't count for anything because there is no teamwork involved. For me, the one unit scout team would be nice, but not a necessity, but at the same time, why aren't they included. It doesn't make sense.

[stealthsilent1]

I believe the answer is the assault command works by using two fire teams who cover each other while the other moves forward.  So for it to work you need two fire teams.  Infantry squads normally train with two or perhaps three (depending on the army and the time period) fire teams.  The game represents this with the two (or sometimes three) columns of icons that represent the squad.  Those are not an accident of convenience they represent the fire teams.  So if you peal off a scout team they now make up on fire team and that leaves one other fire team for the rest. Now the remaining 6 or 7 man team is not able to use the assault command because it is one team.

 

So it is a combination of tactical doctrine and game mechanics.

 

That's my thought anyway.

So it's a training issue, your saying that a fire team is 6 men? I thought the best squad is when a leader leads 4 people. So a 5 man squad. I still don't understand why just 2 people can't leapfrong and perform an assault command, I mean that's all it takes, one guy covering the other guy running. After you do it with 2 people, it's the same idea, nothing's changed, expect that more people are leapfrogging. It's the same concept.

[sburke]

So it's a training issue, your saying that a fire team is 6 men? I thought the best squad is when a leader leads 4 people. So a 5 man squad. I still don't understand why just 2 people can't leapfrong and perform an assault command, I mean that's all it takes, one guy covering the other guy running. After you do it with 2 people, it's the same idea, nothing's changed, expect that more people are leapfrogging. It's the same concept.

Ian was right it requires separate teams as defined in the UI, period.  That is based on the mechanics of the engine, like any software CM has certain restrictions.  It is what it is.  You can always assault using a manual process of an overwatch team and a moving team.  You just can't do it using a pre set "Assault" command in the UI as that assault command is very specific how it works.

[A Canadian Cat]

Indeed it is of course possible to make a change to the game to allow the use of the assault command in single team units but that would be feature work. I doubt it would get very far up BFC's priority list.

[Jargotn]

Yea but then how "realistic" is combat mission anyway? Is it a tactical simulator or is it a, (life of a soldier) simulator

This. Tactical simulator.

 I think the example of sleeping, etc was a bad one. We are not talking about weeks behind enemy lines. The focus of combat mission is combat.

 

There is a reason why we use multiple soldiers to do spotting. It's easier to do things as a team. Two persons double the ability to actually scout, both in game and in reality. Not only is a team less likely to run into an ambush, but also more likely to have one team member survive long enough to send intel about the ambushing enemy to other units. And in case something unexpected happens you have a backup plan.

 

In the end you probably should rethink your scouting if you lose scouts to often.

[Michael Emrys]

The reason why scouting teams in CM are minimum of two men is because that is how armies did it historically. And the armies did it for exceedingly sound reasons, some of which have already been mentioned here. The psychological factors alone make it a must. Being alone on a battlefield and deliberately in close proximity to the enemy would be about the loneliest and scariest thing a soldier would be called on to do. He would have a strong tendency to hunker down and simply survive. In other words, he would likely be militarily useless. There are other factors as well. In a two man team, if one guy gets wounded, the other guy is there to take care of him and help him get back to friendly lines. If you are alone, unless your wound is superficial, you're just SOL, buddy.

 

Michael

[womble]

If you want to use the Assault command, just don't split your squads. It does nothing except have the teams use bounding overwatch with each other anyway. Really, it's not a very good name for the command, given how many people think they should be using it for getting into buildings and such. It's just a movement mode that lets you have teams work without being in adjacent ASs, while only needing one "interface handle". Would it be nice to have teams able to move as a pair of pairs, and a scout pair to be able to bounding overwatch for each other? Yes, but that drops the scale of the game down yet another level, which would require yet further precision and explication of what is currently abstracted.

[stealthsilent1]

Just add 2 man assault function, boom. Also, what's the point of bounding over watch if no one shoots their guns? Just to be ready when they do take the first shot? What's the point of doing it without shooting, the point of the leapfrog is that so you don't get shot at

[womble]

Just add 2 man assault function...

If only such things were so simple.

Also, what's the point of bounding over watch if no one shoots their guns?

Bounding overwatch doesn't always involve continuous suppressive fire. But if you want it to, in CM, you can assign Target commands from movement waypoints of either split teams moving alternately (use pauses to hold them still while their companion team is moving), or of intact Squads ordered to Assault (the static element should fire at the assigned target. Or you can leave it to the TacAI to pick targets for the static element(s).

The point of overwatch without continuous suppression is to be able to respond to enemy presence not previously detected in order to give the moving element a better chance of being able to survive because any surprise resistance will come under fire from the static element. There are many occasions when you want to move without firing, and if you're needing to fire, you probably shouldn't be moving the under fire element much (besides getting it to cover) until the enemy are properly suppressed.

[stealthsilent1]

But if you want it to, in CM, you can assign Target commands from movement waypoints of either split teams moving alternately (use pauses to hold them still while their companion team is moving), or of intact Squads ordered to Assault (the static element should fire at the assigned target.

Well I don't play on turn mode, so manually adding and removing target commands takes too much time

[Michael Emrys]

Well I don't play on turn mode, so manually adding and removing target commands takes too much time

 

I don't think you are going to have a lot of luck getting BFC to customize CM to fit your personal playing style, unless 1) you get a ground swell of people asking for the same thing, and 2) BFC decides that they are interested in making the change. In other words, I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Michael

[Na Vaske]

Just add 2 man assault function, boom. Also, what's the point of bounding over watch if no one shoots their guns? Just to be ready when they do take the first shot? What's the point of doing it without shooting, the point of the leapfrog is that so you don't get shot at

 

I have assaulted an objective many times using bounding overwatch with our BTRs also providing overwatch for us without a single shot being fired.

[womble]

Well I don't play on turn mode, so manually adding and removing target commands takes too much time

It takes exactly as much time as it does in a command phase played Turn-based, or don't you have a Pause button? Or, if you don't want to interrupt the Zen-like flow of the game to actually use the interface tools provided, you just trust the TacAI. Which will never, in any circumstances, use Area Fire but will, if static, and sometimes while moving, engage targets it spots. And since adding target commands takes too much time, you'll be used to depending on the TacAI in any case. Edited January 5, 2015 by womble

[Pelican Pal]

Does the overwatch team still share suppression with the bounding team?

[stealthsilent1]

Does the overwatch team still share suppression with the bounding team?

yes it does, but it also shares line of sight, so it's good on the assault, when you Are charging at them, you double up in assaulting buildings because the guys coming in give the information to the guys behind them, which kill the enemy guys inside. but it's not good when they are shooting at you. Then you got half your force that is getting ambushed and the other half useless, and waiting to get ambushed.

[womble]

Does the overwatch team still share suppression with the bounding team?

If the squad is unsplit, yes. That's one of the reasons I split my squads at game setup and try hard to keep them that way.

 

...it also shares line of sight...

Given that every pTruppe has his own LOS, I think you are making a mistaken assertion. They will share spotting information very quickly, but if you separate them by any distance during their Assault movement legs, the elements might have radically different LOS and LOF. You won't have the overwatch team being very effective if you have the first leg move the moving team beyond a wall or a behind a building, for example and they move into a field of fire from a unit that cannot be seen from the overwatch position. Using many waypoints to keep the teams together is key.

[stealthsilent1]

If the squad is unsplit, yes. That's one of the reasons I split my squads at game setup and try hard to keep them that way. Given that every pTruppe has his own LOS, I think you are making a mistaken assertion. They will share spotting information very quickly, but if you separate them by any distance during their Assault movement legs, the elements might have radically different LOS and LOF. You won't have the overwatch team being very effective if you have the first leg move the moving team beyond a wall or a behind a building, for example and they move into a field of fire from a unit that cannot be seen from the overwatch position. Using many waypoints to keep the teams together is key.

Yea that's what I meant, information sharing. Also, how else am I going to assault a building. The quick move, is instant death if the units inside aren't repressed. Does the hunt move work? Or does the first guy just drop to the ground right at the door? I like to use the target command with the assault command going into a building. It uses a lot of ammo and grenades, but it works. Also, you can't leapfrog with one fire team? You need 2? I though each fireteam learns to leapfrog by itself. Also, what is a fire team? 1 leader and 3 men or 1 leader and 4 men?

[womble]

Also, how else am I going to assault a building.

There has been a lot of discussion about this.

The quick move, is instant death if the units inside aren't repressed.

You mean suppressed. And there is your answer. You don't assault buildings without suppressing the bejazus out of them first. Not in a war zone. HRT/SWAT going into a building is not warzone tactics; nobody is looking out the windows (because of snipers) and the mooks inside are usually pretty much cannon fodder and outnumbered 5 or 6 to one. They also don't have neighbouring buildings providing supporting fires so can be attacked from multiple axes.

I like to use the target command with the assault command going into a building. It uses a lot of ammo and grenades...

Assault is just a sequence of Quick moves with the teams of an unsplit squad alternating. The Target command is the reason this is working, not the Assault command. My SOP for the assaulting team is for them to pause for 10s at the AS outside the door, with a Target order into the building. Because I split my Assault team off first, they have all the grenades, so use them freely. If you don't split squads that way (or at all), the individual teams have fewer grenades and so are less likely to use them.

Also, you can't leapfrog with one fire team? You need 2?

Yes. You need 2 to leapfrog 2 fire teams which is what the Assault order does (or 3 in the case of 12-man, 3-team squads). But you don't need to keep them combined in their squads, you can use Quick moves and Pauses to have split teams leapfrog each other.

Also, what is a fire team? 1 leader and 3 men or 1 leader and 4 men?

Depends on the TO and how you split your squad.

[stealthsilent1]

There has been a lot of discussion about this.You mean suppressed. And there is your answer. You don't assault buildings without suppressing the bejazus out of them first. Not in a war zone. HRT/SWAT going into a building is not warzone tactics; nobody is looking out the windows (because of snipers) and the mooks inside are usually pretty much cannon fodder and outnumbered 5 or 6 to one. They also don't have neighbouring buildings providing supporting fires so can be attacked from multiple axes.Assault is just a sequence of Quick moves with the teams of an unsplit squad alternating. The Target command is the reason this is working, not the Assault command. My SOP for the assaulting team is for them to pause for 10s at the AS outside the door, with a Target order into the building. Because I split my Assault team off first, they have all the grenades, so use them freely. If you don't split squads that way (or at all), the individual teams have fewer grenades and so are less likely to use them.Yes. You need 2 to leapfrog 2 fire teams which is what the Assault order does (or 3 in the case of 12-man, 3-team squads). But you don't need to keep them combined in their squads, you can use Quick moves and Pauses to have split teams leapfrog each other.Depends on the TO and how you split your squad.

youre probably right about the swat tactic, but I like the assault command because I could keep firing while my support guys and still shooting from behind, and I don't get suppressed. If I split the teams up, one team suppresses the other team, and the assault command doesn't do that

That's my main thing, is that if I could use the assault team, and use the assault command with the assault team, they would suppress each other, and I can get close cover with automatics (maybe it doesn't matter in cmbs, but it did for cmbn) and grenades without suppressing my troops.

But I like your technique of waiting 10 seconds ouside before going inside.

[womble]

youre probably right about the swat tactic, but I like the assault command because I could keep firing while my support guys and still shooting from behind, and I don't get suppressed.

If I split the teams up, one team suppresses the other team, and the assault command doesn't do that

Really? I suspect that's more a function of the Assault command's delays and static-time being shorter than you can assign with split teams than it is a function of the command itself. If you use Assault, the covering team will move (and stop firing) as soon as the moving team stops; with split teams, that ain't necessarily so. But either way, you can avoid friendly suppression by ceasing fire with the covering elements (you generally need more than just the one fire team to suppress a building properly in any case) once the assaulting team is in the beaten zone.

But I like your technique of waiting 10 seconds ouside before going inside.

This also allows for additional suppression of the defenders since you want to stop all the other fires on the building to avoid suppressing your own troops.

I might run a test or two to see if you're right that being in an unsplit squad eliminates friendly suppression...

[stealthsilent1]

Really? I suspect that's more a function of the Assault command's delays and static-time being shorter than you can assign with split teams than it is a function of the command itself. If you use Assault, the covering team will move (and stop firing) as soon as the moving team stops; with split teams, that ain't necessarily so. But either way, you can avoid friendly suppression by ceasing fire with the covering elements (you generally need more than just the one fire team to suppress a building properly in any case) once the assaulting team is in the beaten zone.This also allows for additional suppression of the defenders since you want to stop all the other fires on the building to avoid suppressing your own troops.I might run a test or two to see if you're right that being in an unsplit squad eliminates friendly suppression...

but see, the covering unit doesn't matter when the moving unit is in the building, because by that time, they would of already spotted the guys inside the building and taken them out. And since I play real time, it's too much micromanagement to turn off my covering team's fire, RIIIGHT when I'm rushing, it makes much more sense either to have a bigger 12 unit team which does the assault command, but I don't have many of those, so it makes sense to split my team up into assault teams which can do the assault command on the room. Plus, two automatic rifles from point blank is probably enough to get the job done, I don't know.

[Vet 0369]

Also, what is a fire team? 1 leader and 3 men or 1 leader and 4 men?

USMC TO is four-man fire team (one fire team leader and three Marines). There are three fire teams in each squad so each Marine platoon has the equivalent of four Army squads. If I remember correctly from 40-years ago, we did use fire team rushes where two men would "rush" while the other two men provided a base of fire. Then the base would bound past the first two while those provided suppressing fire. That could have been part of a squad or platoon only assault. Again, that was almost half a century ago so I could be mistaken, and Marine infantry tactics could have changed (one man in each squad was a "grenadier" with an M-79 blooper).