Help against Artillery

[LongLeftFlank]

On the one hand, it seems like something like 95% of all infantry attacks in Normandy by either side -- at least in the detailed logs I've read so far -- ground to a halt once the enemy mortars found the range. Snipers and MG nests held up, but rarely stopped, an attack.

On the other hand, those mortars did not then proceed to annihilate the pinned down enemy force, entrenched or no, except in a few unusual instances. The mortars are unquestionably overmodeled in the game when it comes to their lethality against infantry in cover.

[Broadsword56]

So the German infantry grenadier platoons really didn't have any organic mortars at all in Normandy in 1944? I guess the TO&E in the translated German Company Officer's Handbook that the US Army published that year ( http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/number22.pdf) was already obsolete.

[MikeyD]

At CMSF people have been complaining about artillery for years. Mostly 'Why is it so wimpy?' The answer to that is the scenario designers sort'a understood that artillery was a big game imbalancer. So they purposefully misdirect the opening barrage, or limit access to air & artillery, or stagger its introduction as reinforcements. I did one scenario for the Brit module where 105mm light artillery doesn't arrive til 10 minutes before scenario end - with a 6 minute call-in time!

To the CM:BN title. Integral on-map mortar purchase with ammo bearers and remote spotters makes it difficult to reduce artillery lethality of a player-purchase QB. All you can hope for is a balance of terror, both sides able to chew up the terrain equally. Maybe after the 'novelty' of on-map mortars has worn off scenario designers will start dialling-back the lethality again, like they did with CMSF.

[RockinHarry]

So the German infantry grenadier platoons really didn't have any organic mortars at all in Normandy in 1944? I guess the TO&E in the translated German Company Officer's Handbook that the US Army published that year ( http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/number22.pdf) was already obsolete.

German Company Officer's Handbook is not necessarily obsolete, but many german obsolete equipment went to second line troops like static infantry divisions holding the "Atlantikwall" and elsewhere. First line german troops had their 81 and 120mm mortars, partly subordinated at company level or centralized in the heavy weapons company.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

i think the problem with the huge artillery efficiency ingame is due to the fact that infantry cannot entrech themself properly:

infantry in ww2 carried spades to quickly build a rudimentary entrenchment. in cmbn you can only place static trench systems etc.

i think it would be nice if ingame infantry which stays at the same place for some time (for example 5 minutes) will get a entrenchment bonus (maybe with a nice animation) from artillery shrapnells etc.

This is fine in theory, but I don't know if it would be practical in CM. In reality everything would depend on the ground. Agricultural fields are usually very diggable, in wooded areas tree roots can make life difficult, rock of course is impossible unless you construct a stone sangar (not a 5 minute procedure) and of course for low lying areas there is always the water table, which means that if sandbags are used your scrape/trench usually ends up above ground level.

SLR

[siffo998]

of course it should depend also on the ground conditions in cmbn. troops should not be able to build simple entrenchments within 5 minutes when the ground is frozen etc. like someone already said the troops should also suffer a situational awareness malus when they are ordered to entrech themselfs and they should be highly sensible to enemy attacks while building. but maybe this is just dreamland because it would also require alot of ai programming so that ai forces know when its a good situation to entrech their troops and when not. but if you play against a human opponent its not really a problem.

[Paper Tiger]

At CMSF people have been complaining about artillery for years. Mostly 'Why is it so wimpy?' The answer to that is the scenario designers sort'a understood that artillery was a big game imbalancer. So they purposefully misdirect the opening barrage, or limit access to air & artillery, or stagger its introduction as reinforcements. I did one scenario for the Brit module where 105mm light artillery doesn't arrive til 10 minutes before scenario end - with a 6 minute call-in time!

... Maybe after the 'novelty' of on-map mortars has worn off scenario designers will start dialling-back the lethality again, like they did with CMSF.

And then we went back to it in spades in the CMSF NATO module . In that module, you had loads of very heavy support, artilllery, fixed wing aircraft and helicopters at your disposal, even at the start of the mission. Those PzH2000s were absolutely wicked and they featured in almost every mission in the German and Dutch campaigns. (Hands up who thought they were easy ) But that's because the maps were big and the enemy well dispersed.

[womble]

So the German infantry grenadier platoons really didn't have any organic mortars at all in Normandy in 1944? I guess the TO&E in the translated German Company Officer's Handbook that the US Army published that year ( http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/number22.pdf) was already obsolete.

That PDF handbook won't download for me, but as a general point, doesn't the Company have an 'organic' mortar section in the weapons platoon?

[Broadsword56]

That PDF handbook won't download for me, but as a general point, doesn't the Company have an 'organic' mortar section in the weapons platoon?

Yes, the TO&E table is showing a company in an infantry Grenadierregiment should have 3 x 50mm mortars organic to it. It looks like they just might have gotten rid of the 50mm section in every platoon.

[womble]

Yes, the TO&E table is showing a company in an infantry Grenadierregiment should have 3 x 50mm mortars organic to it. It looks like they just might have gotten rid of the 50mm section in every platoon.

It's interesting that what I can find in Googling about the weapon says that 'second rank' units continued to field it, even after it had effectively been withdrawn from front rank service. I suppose those garrison units would generally have felt that anything was better than nothing, whereas the front line troops might routinely expect some other sort of HE chucker to be availble.

[Broadsword56]

Unlike the garrison troops, though, the German 352nd ID was a front-line unit and listed in the highest readiness catgory at the time of D-Day. They had been training in Normandy for the Ostfront, and were expecting to be shipped there eventually, when the invasion intervened and they were kept in Normandy. So I wonder what they actually had in the typical grenadier company's HE toy chest?

[winkelried]

Yes, the TO&E table is showing a company in an infantry Grenadierregiment should have 3 x 50mm mortars organic to it. It looks like they just might have gotten rid of the 50mm section in every platoon.

Couldn't find anything like this in the German sources - and other post-war Allied sources. The 5cm Gw 36 was not very efficient it seems and was retired from front line duty in 1942. Production was halted in mid-1943. According to my sources only second line units (security, fortress) were still equipped with the weapon in 1944/45.

[Broadsword56]

So it looks like the only mortars at all in a German infantry battalion would have been in the 8th (Heavy Weapons) Company: 6 x 81mm and 4 x 120mm.

(Source: Joseph Balkoski's Beyond The Beachhead, p. 310, appendix, TO&E for the 8th Company, 916th GR, 352nd ID)

[Squatdog]

Was that a range issue or firepower? As far as I understand it the range of the German 50 mm was pretty short (568 yards compared to the US 60 mms 1,935 yards).

From what I recall it was replaced at platoon level by a tripod-mounted MG42 in sustained fire role.

The weight of fire a single 50mm mortar could produce was paltry, especially in the massed battles of the Eastern Front, where it's effect could best be described as 'mouse trying to rape elephant'. Then you factor in the effort of lugging it around and lack of versatility compared to HMG.