Tech advances w/ 1.02 Call to Arms scenario

[lettowvorbeck]

I am not seeing a slower tech advance or more time between levels with the new tech system. In my game vs. the AI, A-H is already at industrial level two at the conclusion of the last Sept 1914 turn. I know this is just one example, but I was hoping the new system would keep this kind of rapid pace down.

On the other hand, perhaps I am misconstruing the primary issues handled by the new tech system. On the surface it looks like the the most important concern addressed by the new tech system is overlong periods of no advance in the face of very heavy investment. Perhaps the pacing, while determined by a new system, is largely the same.

[Bill101]

Hi

You are correct, the aim wasn't to change the average amount of time it takes to get an advance, so much as to ensure that ultimately an advance would be made.

Bill

[Hubert Cater]

In theory the initial advances should slow down just slightly with the idea that initial breakthroughs cannot occur until you've reached a 25% research threshold and I'll double check to see that this is working as expected as well.

[Wushuki]

I think the amount of research points that you get is higher than it should be. The patch notes say the following:

For example, if you have 1 chit at 5% each then you have a 2.5 -> 7.5% increment towards 100% per turn.

However when I tried researching 3 technologies with 0 intelligence and 1 chit invested in it I got the following numbers:

5 18 30 43 58 73 78 91 99 developed

13 18 23 33 36 44 51 58 66 78 83 89 96 developed

14 20 28 34 44 49 55 60 68 76 86 90 99 developed

Average turns required: 12,6 (excluding breakthroughs)

Min progress: 5

Max progress: 15

So at first sight it seems that the progress varies between 5 and 15 per turn, with 10 as average. This means that the real average of researching technology would be 10 turns, down from 20 turns in the original where you got a 5% chance of researching it per chit. Of course, now you can still achieve breakthroughs, so the actual research time will be even lower.

That likely explains why in so many games you end up with very high technology levels very early on.

Could you explain in a bit more detail how the new research system is intended to work? Is the research speed reduced on higher tech levels? And how does intelligence affect research speed? Or does it only affect breakthrough chance, like in the earlier games?

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Wushuki,

I've just quickly tested on my end and everything seems to be working as intended.

My guess is that perhaps you are looking at the WWI campaigns in your tests and if this is the case then the initial chit is not 5% but rather 7% so that would allow for the slightly higher increments you've seen in your game. Can you confirm?

For the new research system it essentially works exactly the same as it did before with the only difference being that you need to achieve a research progression of at least 25% before you achieve an early breakthrough, and you will achieve a level as soon as you reach 100% progression.

The idea was to remove the issue that you might play a whole game without achieving a research level while bridging it with the existing system as most players were already familiar with it.

For a bit of a further explanation:

1 chit @ 5% gives you a 5% chance on your turn that you might get a hit and achieve the next level but now you must have at least a 25% progression in your research before you get a random breakthrough.

Each of your turns you also progress towards achieving the next level (this is part of the new system) and once you reach 100% you will achieve that level.

[Wushuki]

I ran my tests in the ww2 campaign included in patch 1.02.

I did some additional testing just to be sure, but I keep coming up with some strange numbers. If you wish to try for yourself you can download the savegame I used here. It is a 2 player hotseat game without passwords where I just clicked through the turns.

In it I invested 1 chit in 17 different research fields for countries that did not have any intelligence (just in case this has any effect). The numbers I got where the following. I have made all numbers that should not occur if it is 5% with +/- 2.5% bold. At the savegame it is 2 turns after the investment, so for each technology it is at the second number of the row when you load it.

Italy

IW: 6 12 16 19

HT: 7 14 24 31

NW: 10 20 24 32

AS: 7 12 16 20

ART: 11 16 20 31

AAD: 5 12 18 26

USA

IW: 6 13 20 28

HT: 4 12 19 26

AA: 9 16 22 34

HB: 3 8 17 25

NW: 3 8 11 16

LRA: 7 16 21 32

AS: 7 14 17 25

France

IW: 7 12 19 24

AA: 7 21 32 46

HB: 4 8 18 28

NW: 5 9 14 22

So as you can see, the largest number I got was 14 at turn 4 for AA with France. If the description in the patch notes is correct than it should never be higher than 8, which shows that there is indeed a problem here.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks Wushuki, I see it now and consider this fixed for the next release.

[Hubert Cater]

Just an update, from what I could tell the issue was that the code was incorrectly implemented with 1 chit at 5% then giving you a random increase range of 2.5% -> 10% instead of 2.5% -> 7.5%.

Additionally, and this part is to be expected, it is not just intelligence that gives your chits boosts but also your highest enemy level will also give you a 1% boost per level difference so even with 1 chit if your opponent has a higher level or has a achieved a higher level than you this will also increase your research %s per chit.

This was likely making up some of the higher numbers you've seen because the formula would have then been 5% + 1% for your opponent's higher level giving you 6%, resulting in a range of 3% -> 12%.

Now this will correctly be 3% -> 9% instead.... hopefully this makes sense!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I just want to say that I am tickled pink that Hubert finally implemented my idea-it isn't exactly the same as what I came up with, and in fact owes more than a little to the diplomacy engine (which has operated on similar principles since the 1st SC2 game came out), but just want to express my thanks to him. <toast>

[SeaMonkey]

Reasoning and logic always win out, good job JDF2.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks John and I'm glad you like the changes