Passable impassable foliage

[Georgie]

Are there any written instructions available on how to make foliage that is impassable to tanks and other vehicles? If it is in the manual then I missed it. Thanks in advance for any help.:confused:

[womble]

Heavy forest ground type is impassable. Just adding more bushes and trees won't stop vehicles. That's the only impassable 'foliage-based' terrain. Marshy terrain is also impassable, but might not feel so appropriate for putting under trees and bushes in Normandy.

[Sgt Schultz]

Setting ground conditions to anything more than "damp" and then piling on some brush, bushes, etc will make most folks think twice.

[LongLeftFlank]

Since the OP seems to have been answered, I think I'll hijack this thread and expand it to a "Foliage and Concealment" discussion. Apologies in advance to Georgie.

As I work with the Editor (yes, I'm working on my La Meauffe-Le Carillon monster map again after a long absence), I continue to believe that the most critical terrain tile that remains absent is a "thicket", which is to say a dense stand of young trees, tall bushes and shrubbery (*nee!*) that, at least in summertime:

(a) is useless from a cover standpoint, and

( creates little hindrance to infantry or vehicle movement, BUT

© provides excellent concealment to both men and vehicles and -- most important --

(d) is tall enough to largely mask the interior of a forest or wooded area from the adjacent open ground (field, road) for spotting purposes, and vice versa

At present, the deciduous woodlands on nearly all maps look like Central Park, which is to say, some busy soul has been pruning away the new growth that would normally crowd the margin between forest shade and (sunny) open ground. In reality, that labour is only undertaken in parks and orchards -- certainly not on the margin of farm fields where farmers want as full a windbreak as possible shielding their crops and pastures. In a combat situation, a lot of cleared underbrush should be a dead giveaway that someone has created a field of fire for his weapons.

Thickets are very important tactically, as they effectively (~90% in summer) separate units in forests visually from units outside them, even when they are in quite close proximity. They are also tall enough to hide AFVs (ever wonder why those StuGs in period photos are all covered with brush? -- btw it would be super cool to get a underbrush "over-skin" layer for StuGs and PzIVs analogous to the Stryker "slat cage" in CMSF, with no game effects)

Pine or mixed forests are a little different -- thickets are still present on the margin but they tend to present more gaps into the interior, but that isn't what we are mainly dealing with in Normandy.

Anyway, rather than (only) whine and plead for a new terrain tile, I figured I'd play around a little to see if I could approximate a reasonably dense forest margin using the tools available. The following is what I came up with, with a couple of StuGs sitting in ambush for colour:

Head-on view (5 8x8m tiles across)

Side (cutaway) view:

From left to right, here is the terrain I used:

Tiles 1 and 2: Big deciduous trees (type A and C) alternating x3 and x2, with "heavy forest" undergrowth (I don't want tanks going back there)

Tile 3: Small deciduous trees (orchard type D) x 3, with "light forest"

Tile 4: My ersatz thicket, which is a combination of:

(a) the tallest bushes type C x 3

( "gapped" hedge tiles alternating between diagonal and straight-across angles so as to look random and not man-made.

© "light forest" undergrowth.

Tile 5. Weeds or tall grass.

I also tried adding "brush" to the thicket, but it looks like a straight carryover from CMSF desert scrub and doesn't seem to provide much incremental concealment, at least visually. But if there's a game advantage, perhaps it should be added -- let me know SVP.

[LongLeftFlank]

So enough with the eye candy..... does adding a "thicket" have a meaningful effect on LOS?

To test this, I removed the thicket (the bushes and hedges, although I left the light forest undergrowth in place) from the front layer (Tile 4) on the left side (of the screenie), then had my StuH try to find the "deepest in" Area Target it could on each side.

With the thicket, the farthest in the StuH could trace a valid LOS and land a shot is about 145m (3 tiles in). This was a singularity; LOS was mostly blocked from about 137-139m.

Without the thicket, the farthest in the StuH could trace a valid LOS (and land shot) was 160m (4 tiles in). This was also a singularity, as LOS was mostly blocked from about 140-145m.

In both cases, the StuH put most of its shots near the target spot, although one occasionally fell short.

I call this test inconclusive, but it suggests to me that a tall "screening" thicket or stand of saplings is needed. I haven't done live fire spotting tests (yet), but units shouldn't be able to spot so deeply into (or out of) the interior of most deciduous forests in summer.

[Broadsword56]

Terrific demo LLF!

Can you possibly include a screenshot from top-down in the editor, so we see the actual way the tiles were placed in the 3D example?

Thanks a bunch.

[LongLeftFlank]

The exact tiles and contents are described in detail in the lower paragraphs of post 4 above. I can do a screenie if you still want it, but it won't show you more than I described there. Everything else is flat grass etc.

EDIT: I just emailed you the file.

[Chris Ferrous]

Good test LLF!

I've been thinking the same; we need a bushy mid-height foliage (about 1-2m height), and a thorny thicket (0.5-1.0m), the latter being almost impenetrable except to tanks which can crush it.

Currently, my best fit for the 'bushy' tile is low bocage with gap in every tile plus the three type C shrubs same as you, plus brush (which seems to have to be added first), plus various ground tiles, again same as you, i.e. forest, weeds or long grass.

The long grass is environmentally wrong because that's the last place you'd find it, but it blocks the mini-trunks of the shrubs. :confused:

Not done a firing test though.

Other than fiddling with barbed wire I can think of no solution to the thorny thicket. I suppose the ubiquitous low bocage does it for infantry but not for tanks.

[Sgt Schultz]

To improve the 'thicketness'(concealment) of an area with the tools at hand, one may wish to delve into the elevation editor.

A line of locked tiles set to the main forest elevation just inside the treeline.

Then a line of locked tiles along the edge at one elevation higher.

Then a line of locked tiles back down one, outside the high locked tiles.

One and two bush along the lower outside.

Three bush along the rise.

D trees just inside.

I have to go to work, so if someone wants to make it and show it before I get home to do so, feel free.

That should reduce LOS into the trees nicely.

[RockinHarry]

I can confirm about LLFs test results from some own tests a couple of weeks ago. Sgt Schultz idea might work, as I had tried with adding single spots of low bocage at the forest edges, combined with type c+b bushes, which then blocked LOS/LOF more effectively.

Results from another topic test indicate, that +1m rises are not sufficient for many purposes, but +2m will do (at least for infantry).

LOS/LOF blockage of all the billboard type terrain (grasses....) appear just to have little effect. Those that actually provide 3D geometry (bocage, trees, ...) are usually more effective.

[LongLeftFlank]

One could also use low or high bocage (with gaps) in place of the hedges. But both that and creating an embankment would provide a lot more solid cover to units in the thicket than they would really have sitting in a stand of saplings and tall bushes.

[Sgt Schultz]

OK, got home and ran the editor through its paces.

The Low Bocage with the man-width entrance built in is our friend.

They peacefully coexist with a 3 bush selection.

Placing a few bushes on the outer slope helps as well.

I used double D trees inside the ridge with the bush/bocage combo on the ridge.

JpzIV outside could not see a PzIV inside unless the tank had no bocage in the way.... but the Tank could see the JPzIV.

Naked -

With trees -

Ground level same direction -

more to come ...

[Sgt Schultz]

How the sausage is made -

LOS check from outside in -

LOS check from inside out -

The reason for the lopsided LOS is the tank has a spotter higher up than the Jagd.

[Chris Ferrous]

Yes, that's pretty well what I've been doing but without the manufactured mini-ridge round the forest edge and without the second ring of double shrubs which I honestly think you can discard.