Impenetrable bocage.

[Michael Emrys]

I wouldn't be so concerned about exposing by belly as by approaching dangerous enemies with all my weapons pointing at the moon.

That's another, very serious, consideration. There is also the jarring slam when the nose of the tank re-encounters the ground after crossing. Even if no injuries to the crew result, it must be momentarily disorienting.

Michael

[JonS]

1) Passable with assistance:

2) Passable to infantry without assistance:

3) Easily passable to infantry, little obstacle to movement:

4) Passable to armour and infantry:

I've omitted almost all of the detail stuff that can be done for simplicity and clarity. But, you can add trees and bushes, vary the ground terrain, and vary the bocage between high and low to get a varied and natural look.

[Paper Tiger]

I've been reading up a lot on operations on the other side of the landings and it seems that tanks were seriously confined to driving along roads by the bocage. The bocage was not 'tank country'. If you allow tanks to pass through bocage even with a small time penalty, you would make the bocage 'tank country' as the tanks would be able to cruise through the fields with their infantry following behind using the breaches they created. I'm not reading anything that supports that idea. I read accounts of tanks advancing without infantry support through bocage and having to take a chance every time they turned a corner that they would run into an ambush. This would not be possible in CMBN as you could just drive your tanks through the bocage and outflank your ambushers.

[Paper Tiger]

LOL. I just read an account of a squadron of Churchills that did just that during Operation Bluecoat

[Blackcat]

LOL. I just read an account of a squadron of Churchills that did just that during Operation Bluecoat

Chuchills could go where other tanks couldn't. Their extraordinary climbing abilities had been demonstrated in Tunisia. So I don't think the exceptional abilities of a small proportion of the armour deployed negates your original argument.

P.S. If I am thinking of the same action didn't the Churchills out run their infantry, which couldn't keep up (due to the terrain as well as defensive fire).

[womble]

Chuchills could go where other tanks couldn't. Their extraordinary climbing abilities had been demonstrated in Tunisia. So I don't think the exceptional abilities of a small proportion of the armour deployed negates your original argument.

So how to simulate this once we've actually got Churchills? It's almost like every Churchill should be counted as "Rhino equipped" (even if they don't get rid of the berm, the hedge on top should be breached for infantry at least), but there should be some exposure of the underbelly, and occlusion of vision forward. I think most non-fully-tracked vehicles would have some difficulty getting past the tangled mess of former hedge that would be left, too.

[Holien]

"Holien, tell you what! You come down to my neck of the woods with a WWII entrenching tool. I'll introduce to some rural hedges and we will time how long it takes you to get through. Then we will go up to some sunken roads near Shere in Surrey which have banks just like the high bocage and we can repeat the test there.

Absolutely will do that just a few things to add to make it a true like for like test.

1. I will need some military training say the same number of years the soldiers got in WW2.

2. I will need to be a bit younger when there are no obstacles you can't climb as a 19 year old.

3. To be part of a squad of soldiers working together to get over an obstacle.

4. A hamster to keep me company...

If you can arrange that I am there.

It really all boils down to why do soldiers practise over obstacle courses!!!

Yes it will take time, yes you will choose your spot and yes the game is an abstraction.

Last version of the game the abstraction allowed infantry to cross and be very very vulnerable.

This version infantry can not pass unless the scenario / map designer makes some allowances.

A simple point...

If BTS want to leave it that way that is their choice, if by offering another opinion we can get change then this is where I and others are offering another POV.

The whole issue of Tanks I have no problem with not allowing them to cross unless they are Churchills or have Cullin devices.

Infantry get through hedges (and bocage) that is their job....

[Holien]

Then again, it's entirely possible to arrange for there to be a highly unrealistic quantity of explosives available to breach hedgerows, and it's certain that the use of these explosives to do so is much easier than it was IRL, so perhaps it's a mitigating aspect: consider (some of) the breaching explosives to be representative of the use of 'other means' that would be too arduous to code and build the interface for.

Hi until it is changed (unlikely) then I will have to live with this view and hope designers like JonS do good work with bocage to allow infantry through.

JonS sterling explanation I hope all designers will take note....

A good thread and lots of interesting views and information.

[Holien]

Or you could just walk out into some fields near you and try a few experiments on ordnary hedges.

BTW I live in the countryside and have worked in hedges cutting chunks out of Ivy which has been throttling the hedge Oaks.

Something I wish other landowners would do to stop the ivy from eventually killing the tree.

In days gone by trees were better looked after but that is another bug bear of mine...

So lets just say I know hedges.

[John1966]

Last week I posted that, after a day in the English countryside (Gloucestershire), much of the hedgerows I had a close look at were, as far as I'm concerned, impenetrable to infantry for pratcial purposes.

Well I just spent another day in the country (Bath area) and I would say that most of the hedgerows I saw probably WERE penetrable to infantry (with a bit of effort).

So, I'd say there are different kinds on bocage IRL. Some of it is impenetrable and some of it isn't.

[womble]

Last week I posted that, after a day in the English countryside (Gloucestershire), much of the hedgerows I had a close look at were, as far as I'm concerned, impenetrable to infantry for pratcial purposes.

Well I just spent another day in the country (Bath area) and I would say that most of the hedgerows I saw probably WERE penetrable to infantry (with a bit of effort).

So, I'd say there are different kinds on bocage IRL. Some of it is impenetrable and some of it isn't.

It's worth noting two things:

Firstly, there has never been much hedgerow in the UK that's quite as impenetrable as that found in Normandy in '44. The Allies practiced in the West Country and found the Bocage to be unexpected. Bocage truly is an exceptional case. It's not even found anywhere else in France. There are some ancient hedgerows in Britain that are possibly comparable, but there are no counties where the general habit of field boundary hedges is quite as formidable.

Secondly, modern hedges are generally not kept up in the 'old way'. Even trimming them the 'modern way' with 45 degree slopes to the sides and a flat top doesn't make them anything like as difficult as a hedge that's grown for centuries and been laid to be stockproof. A nicely laid hedge is easy to hop over. If it's fresh done, there's even a nice withy top rail. You're not going to push through the body of it without a machete of some kind though, and then it'll take you some time.