Off map artillery observers (idea)

[De Savage]

Now we need observer ON MAP to call artillery or air missions. I think we need too "un observed artillery" or off map artillery observer. Many times real observer was much further even kilometres away. I'm really looking forward to have "predefined artillery or air missions".

This way we can simulate several cases like "artillery spotter plane" or "observer on battleship". Maybe observer can be placed on the edge of the map - give him heigh. He is "virtual onberver" or we can do even without him and make planned artillery (scenario designer plans when arty/air missions arrive and where).

Example 1: Battalion is assaulting village 9:00. Heavy bombardment (air & divisional arty) wll begin 8:45 and ends 9:00. No artillery observer is needed - working like pre-artillery for AI side. What you CANNOT DO is cancel or adjust this.

Example 2: Bombers will arrive 14:00, drop bombs on enemy. You cannot contact planes, they will do their mission and fly away. Plan you assault after bombs have been dropped.

Example 3: For scenario makers they can plan artillery arriving on pre-defined spot on precise time. No need for observers.

Benefits:

1) Map's small scale make sometimes artillery missions hard to call (cannot observe spotting rounds. IRL these missions were called much further away example from high church tower.

2) Now it's hard to simulate bocage fighting. Germans had good observation points on hills and church towers. They could (sometimes) adjust artillery from kilometers away.

3) Making Omaha beach scenarios with ships spotting units on the beach.

Etc.

[rocketman]

In general, I like the idea - especially benefit #3. I think it would work for artillery, but from what I've read about pre-planned air strikes, they were sometimes wildly inaccurate and caused friendly casualties, which would stop the scenario dead in its tracks.

[Holien]

Having the ability to define a more complex pre defined fire plan would be good. I.e Hit this Map Ref at X hour then Y and so on.

I guess not going to happen but a wish....

[Michael Emrys]

Having the ability to define a more complex pre defined fire plan would be good. I.e Hit this Map Ref at X hour then Y and so on.

I guess not going to happen but a wish....

We have the beginnings of such a system in that we can delay a preplanned bombardment by a certain number of system-defined minutes. But that is a pretty limited and rigid way to go about it. A full-blown artillery plan as you describe is probably possible to code, but there's no telling how high on the list of current priorities it occupies.

Michael

[Tarquelne]

A full-blown artillery plan as you describe is probably possible to code, but there's no telling how high on the list of current priorities it occupies.

Yep. I suspect it's far down the list. The best opportunity for it getting included may be the upcoming GUI re-vamp, since it might need that anyway.

But I'd use it - I'd often rather do all my arty pre-planned.

[Statisoris]

Like it! So many cool new ideas on the boards recently. I would love the level bombing simulation possibilities of this.

[YankeeDog]

3) Making Omaha beach scenarios with ships spotting units on the beach.

Disclaimer: I'm skeptical of Omaha scenarios in general -- In a wargame of CM's scale, I think it's difficult to model the extreme breakdown of C2, and then the small team and individual initiative that eventually carried the day on the beaches of Omaha.

But anyway, if the goal is to model the fire support provided by naval guns during the first few hours of the Omaha landings, I don't think using an abstracted "off map observer" controlling off-map Naval artillery is the most realistic way to do it. At Omaha, the pre H-Hour barrage of gunfire and aerial bombing largely missed the beach itself and the defenses on the bluffs immediately behind the beach, so allowing the player to precisely target this pre-landing barrage will give an unrealistic impression of the conditions on the beach when the troops actually landed. Better to start the scenario about the time the first LCIs hit the beach and assume the pre-landing barrage has already happened -- maybe a few shell craters here and there, and modest casualties to German defenders from the few bombs and shells that did land close enough to the beach defenses to have any impact on the fight to get off the beach.

From H-Hour on, with troops on the beach, the larger guns of the cruisers and battleships were by and large not directed at the defenses on the bluffs directly overlooking the landing beaches -- they were too concerned about causing casualties to the landing troops and so directed their fire at emplacements to flanks of the landing beach, and also further inland.

So, from the perspective of a CMBN depiction of Omaha, the most important naval gunfire support at Omaha was from DDs like the Frankford and the McCook that came in quite close to the beach and fired on the defenses directly overlooking the beach from less than 1km offshore. These ships were not in direct contact with the beach forces. In some cases, they did direct their fire at locations which they observed the few operating tanks on the beach firing upon, but that's the closest thing there was to coordination between the DD fire support, and the troops on the beaches.

So it was flat-trajectory, direct lay naval gunfire that played a role on Omaha beach during the first few hours of the landings, not high-angle indirect fire, which is what CM off-map artillery depicts. IMHO, you'll get a closer approximation this type of gunfire support by sticking 5 Priests or 5 105mm Shermans on an island ~ 900m offshore, and letting them have at it. Admittedly, this is not a perfect solution since the caliber is smaller, and 5x105mm AFVs won't behave the same as a battery of 5-in. naval guns. But overall, I do think this is a closer simulation of the type of naval gunfire support that played a role at Omaha than actually using the off-map DD 127mm Artillery available in CMBN.

Once you start depicting the combats that happened after the morning of the 6th, once the troops got over the first bluffs, then the use of the CM Off-map Naval Gunfire support (directed by an FO unit) becomes more appropriate.

[Broadsword56]

Sorry if I'm repeating myself from other threads here, but just to briefly mention:

Another way is to make a maximum-sized map and play your battle on just a smaller marked portion of it. Then you can have remote FOs on the map and in game, but they can spot from elevations, steeples, etc. You just have to keep your big map free of objects (to prevent computer lag), and then detail the battle area as much as you like. I'd make one exception and include trees in any forested areas on the big map, since these would have been tall enough to affect LOS of units inside/behind them, even if the spotter was at a higher elevation.