The “Guadalcanal” of CMBN scenarios?

[SteveP]

Keep in mind that I was not trying to make anyone feel bad. This was my way of trying to understand why fighting thru the bocage was so difficult. I did this for myself. But I thought others would be curious about the same question, so I posted the scenario (my first in CM, I should note )

I do plan on creating scenarios based on how the American adapted (and how the Germans adapted to them ...)

[SteveP]

Spoilers (although I don't think any of this will help you ... )

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For the sake of clarity, there are 3 ways in which this scenario is biased to one side or the other (IMHO):

1. The Americans have unhampered use of their mortars, which was not the case IRL. Defenders in the hedgerows in CMBN are very vulnerable to mortar fire, which may or may not be realistic (because the Americans could not use their mortars effectively, so we don't know.

2. The Germans are spread out and for almost the entire scenario do not have C2. Plus they can be defeated in detail, which RL German commanders would not have allowed.

3. The Americans can, for the most part, deploy into a bocage field unmolested. In reality, the Germans had every opening in the bocage dialed in for their MGs.

Just food for thought.

[Agua]

Spoilers (although I don't think any of this will help you ... )

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For the sake of clarity, there are 3 ways in which this scenario is biased to one side or the other (IMHO):

1. The Americans have unhampered use of their mortars, which was not the case IRL. Defenders in the hedgerows in CMBN are very vulnerable to mortar fire, which may or may not be realistic (because the Americans could not use their mortars effectively, so we don't know.

2. The Germans are spread out and for almost the entire scenario do not have C2. Plus they can be defeated in detail, which RL German commanders would not have allowed.

3. The Americans can, for the most part, deploy into a bocage field unmolested. In reality, the Germans had every opening in the bocage dialed in for their MGs.

Just food for thought.

1. Well, I haven't found a spot where any unit can sit for as long as it would take to call indirect fire before being pulverized with German mortars. I suppose if I knew the location of the sniper beforehand, I could take the target tool and find LOS for direct fire mortar, but that would be pretty unrealistic, and it wouldn't be able to get off many rounds (if any) before some form of arty would take it out.

2. I don't understand how the editor works, but if they do not have C2, then how are they calling arty on my troops whenever they sit in any location for more than 2 minutes? Or are sniper teams given radios here? Serious question, not a smartassed one.

3. I can't get 60 meters beyond the setup zone into the wheat field without a sniper, in this order: (1) murdering my scout team moving on "hunt"; (2) breaking the remainder of the squad which moves up to the murder site; then (3) breaking the other two squads of the platoon when they lay prone trying to support the earlier squad. By saying that "Americans can, for the most part, deploy into a bocage field unmolested", do you mean they can step into the fields from the breaks in the bocage? If that's the case, then yes, that is true, at least with regard to exit from the setup zone.

[SteveP]

1. Well, I haven't found a spot where any unit can sit for as long as it would take to call indirect fire before being pulverized with German mortars. I suppose if I knew the location of the sniper beforehand, I could take the target tool and find LOS for direct fire mortar, but that would be pretty unrealistic, and it wouldn't be able to get off many rounds (if any) before some form of arty would take it out.

2. I don't understand how the editor works, but if they do not have C2, then how are they calling arty on my troops whenever they sit in any location for more than 2 minutes? Or are sniper teams given radios here? Serious question, not a smartassed one.

3. I can't get 60 meters beyond the setup zone into the wheat field without a sniper, in this order: (1) murdering my scout team moving on "hunt"; (2) breaking the remainder of the squad which moves up to the murder site; then (3) breaking the other two squads of the platoon when they lay prone trying to support the earlier squad. By saying that "Americans can, for the most part, deploy into a bocage field unmolested", do you mean they can step into the fields from the breaks in the bocage? If that's the case, then yes, that is true, at least with regard to exit from the setup zone.

Well, the bottom line is that there is nothing which happens in this scenario which did not happen to American troops in the bocage. For example, there is documentation for the effectiveness of snipers in this terrain. And, yes, I meant that the Americans can deploy into the field without being shot while they enter thru the opening in the bocage. I had to allow that as a side effect of allowing the Americans to use mortars (complicated explanation, but that is the reason).

If you find this scenario to be frustrating, think of it as training for CM:Guadalcanal, whenever that comes out (assuming that BFC doesn't wimp out on the realism factor )

[SteveP]

Another hint:

If you are thinking first of how to use your mortars, you are making exactly the same mistake that the American troops made. Their instincts were to advance only far enough to spot the enemy and then let the artillery do the heavy lifting. It didn't work in the bocage. That is why the Germans were somewhat contemptuous of the American rifle company soldiers they faced during that 3-4 week period.

Food for thought.

[Agua]

Well, the bottom line is that there is nothing which happens in this scenario which did not happen to American troops in the bocage. For example, there is documentation for the effectiveness of snipers in this terrain. And, yes, I meant that the Americans can deploy into the field without being shot while they enter thru the opening in the bocage. I had to allow that as a side effect of allowing the Americans to use mortars (complicated explanation, but that is the reason).

If you find this scenario to be frustrating, think of it as training for CM:Guadalcanal, whenever that comes out (assuming that BFC doesn't wimp out on the realism factor )

Oh, that's fine Steve. You did make a very attractive map.

My point was simply each of the "biases" you listed in the quoted post simply are of no consequence. The presence of mortars doesn't matter because they can't be used. You might as well have given them a 2.5 ton GMC set up in the sunken road - it couldn't be used either, but that would hardly qualify as an unrealistic advantage which favors the player. It's the same with each of the "bias[es]" you listed. What difference does the lack of C2 make for the AI if: (1) the individual units are so spread out that information sharing sould not allow combined firing assistance (borg spotting) anyway; or (2) through AI planning (or some other mechanism I do not understand) artillery is pounding everything anyway so that indirect spotting is unnecessary? Finally, if in reality troops were unable to step foot through an opening in bocage because of trained German MG, they simply wouldn't go through those holes. So that is no "bias" of any consequence in favor of the US player player either.

And all of that is fine. But your post is deceptive in as much as it appears to communicate to the player that he is given unrealistic advantges when, in fact, they are immaterial in the contrext of the scenario design.

Back in CMx1, I used to set up some pretty mean, nasty reverse slope defenses in H2H play as well. So I can appreciate what you've put together there, and its immpressive. I also recognize it for what it is: like a skull and bones on a bottle liquid under the cabinet. I'm not going to drink that either.

[SteveP]

Back in CMx1, I used to set up some pretty mean, nasty reverse slope defenses in H2H play as well. So I can appreciate what you've put together there, and its immpressive. I also recognize it for what it is: like a skull and bones on a bottle liquid under the cabinet. I'm not going to drink that either.

That's OK. I knew this scenario would not be to everyone's taste (though I did make some effort to get people to try it ).

I did not create this scenario to make anyone's life difficult. I created it to better understand something myself: that is, why the American infantry considered bocage fighting to be about the worst thing they had ever experienced (or at least comparable to Guadalcanal, which was the worst thing they had every experienced). I wanted to figure out if a CMBN scenario could be so constructed, and the AI programmed to defend something like the Germans did, that I could experience what it was like for an infantry company in that situation. I figured that there were others who played this game with similar motivations: to see what the reality was like, even when the reality was pretty depressing.

There is nothing contrived about this map or scenario (IMHO). But this is the first scenario I have ever posted for a CM game, so I am open to anyone who might see something that doesn't appear to be consistent with authoritative sources on fighting in the bocage.

I also plan to create scenarios that test how the Americans adapted to this awful terrain (and maybe one from the German side after things got difficult for them to hold this ground). I hope they will be as realistic and challenging as I can make them.

[Oddball_E8]

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/normandy/bocage/fighting.htm

interesting recap of most of the books on the subject (i think, im no real grog) if anyone is interested/ doubts the realistic portrayal of the scenario.

personally tho, i just got so sick of it that i opened it up in the scenario editor and gave the yanks a sherman 105 and loads of artillery

[IRUNSAMOK]

You guys are doing it wrong. Once you see the map(LOOK AT THAT FIELD OH GOD) you turn to the battalion commander and tell him where to shove it and/or then shoot yourself in the foot.

Anyway, for the record I like this scenario and scenarios like it alot. A green rifle company gets channeled through two big, obvious killzones and is thrown back by numericaly inferior but experienced and motivated german force. Sounds about right too me. Tagline say "Charlie Company Gets Schooled in Bocage Warfare." Scenario delivers. Weeee

[CMFDR]

SteveP,

while not enjoying it that much (since I don't enjoy to be butchered), I think that such a tribute may deserve to be experienced by a larger player base and for that, I would like to be allowed to translate it in French and spread it through the french speaking community on Appui-feu.com

Of course, the diffusion will be under your control as I'll keep you informed about its success and about the feedback, if you want so.

[Sgt Schultz]

I love me a good "Kobiyashi Maru" scenario. From the posts so far, this one should do fine.

Will start it up now that road trip is done.

[Renaud]

I managed to squeeze out a tactical victory (850 to 400 pts), it was incredibly close though, and I had to pretend it was stalingrad: suffered 75% casualties but got both objectives. Elite mode, wego, no saves or restarts, no reading any AAR's or spoilers. Hmmm... 500 meters for 75% casualties...we'll need cloning or undead tech to reach Paris.

I've been getting total victories in the disc scenarious without too much trouble, this was a real challenge though. And yes, it could have been much tougher. There could have been a dozen more trp's, every hedge zeroed plus other approach routes and some defensive works, more mines too: if there's only 1 or 2 openings you know the amis have to through, hey why not.

On the other hand, I think vanilla GI's should be able to mark mines (and engineers should actually be able to lift them, say 5-15 minutes per action spot, depending on training/experience?). Also I could have used a tank or 2 on the road. With a single sherman, I would have had a lot less casualties.

Great (and evil) scenario, thanks SteveP.

[SteveP]

SteveP,

while not enjoying it that much (since I don't enjoy to be butchered), I think that such a tribute may deserve to be experienced by a larger player base and for that, I would like to be allowed to translate it in French and spread it through the french speaking community on Appui-feu.com

Of course, the diffusion will be under your control as I'll keep you informed about its success and about the feedback, if you want so.

Most certainly. I created this scenario for my own education and training, and quite happy for others to do with it as they want (as long as they don't edit it and run around making unearned victory claims ). I would like to get any feedback that suggests an error in realism on my part. That is most important for this scenario and for the others I am planning to do.

Also, my apologies for the pun in the title of the scenario, if apologies are required. I have no idea how well that works for the french-speaking community.

[SteveP]

And yes, it could have been much tougher. There could have been a dozen more trp's, every hedge zeroed plus other approach routes and some defensive works, more mines too: if there's only 1 or 2 openings you know the amis have to through, hey why not.

No doubt I could have made it tougher, but my goal was to make the hedgerows do most of the work for the Germans (as I think they did IRL). Also, I had to figure out where to draw the line so that players didn't think I was giving the Germans too many assets in relationship to the force size for the Americans. I actually kept trimming down the German force as I developed the scenario. Did I go too far?

[CMFDR]

(...)I have no idea how well that works for the french-speaking community.

It works marvelously since it's referring to the well known movie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Cage_aux_Folles_(film)

[Renaud]

I thought the play balance is very tight, considering I was just barely able to take the last objective with my last few shattered men and eek out a tactical victory. On the plus side there will be no one to court-martial except the battalion commander, since the company CO and exec both died at the foot of the church on minute 76 (I used all but 3 minutes of the 1:20 scenario time - required about 6 hours of real time WEGO).

On the other hand, it would be tougher to get a total US victory...US would have to somehow sustain far less casualties, so that the germans don't get their US casualty points. If I played it again, which I'm not, I go 100% down the middle and avoid the road entirely. That might actually be worse though, due to additional arty casualties.

[SteveP]

On the other hand, it would be tougher to get a total US victory

I realize that CM players are accustomed to thinking they should be able to get a total victory at some point, when playing against the AI. I think the real life commander of Charlie Company would have been happy just making decent progress against the Germans in such difficult terrain.

The play balance is reasonably consistent with the QB budgets for a tiny battle -- which is the best metric I had available to gauge that. What makes the big difference (IMHO) are the hedgerows. But that was the point of the scenario, of course.

[Sgt Schultz]

I love it. Still slogging through while attending to map making etc, but it's my kind of bloodbath. I fully anticipate running low/out of ammo before reaching the last objective, as I am pouring full-bore area fire into every sighting. Zooks and rifle grenades are flying all over. Pop smoke is my friend(or was while I had smoke).

One Ami breach team would completely alter the entire scenario.

The whole "For want of a nail" parable aquires new relevance in this battle, for which I thank SteveP... while at the same time cursing him.

Edit - by the way ... imho if a player gets a total victory on the first run of a battle then that scenario may need design tweaking(unless it's a historical that worked out that way... yawn). If your boys aren't tired, bleeding, battered and just about ready to frag your butt, then the designer is not doing his job. But that's the kid in me that likes blowing stuff up talking. He's the one that makes my battles though.

[Frankster65]

Absolutely beautiful scenario SteveP. Just finished my first run for it and I was sweating through the whole thing. I'm currently reading "The Americans in Normandy" and this scenario did indeed give me the feeling of what was described in that book as "Hedgerow Hell." Well done sir!

[Major SNAFU]

I started this scenario, seems OK so far with one gripe.

I assume the farmers have some elaborate crane and hoist system in place to get the plow and harrow into each field? Do the oxen resent having to bust bocage to enter the fields?

In other words, the landscape seems a bit contrived towards fighting a war vs farming.

Here are a *few* resources which reference the bocage field system and what was being grown in them, etc.

http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/oth/farmstruct.html

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/normandy/bocage/fighting.htm

http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/normandy/bocage/overcame.htm

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=46171

The take home message is that most of the fields were livestock enclosures (BF give us moving sheep and cows or sumfink!) and orchards. There were some grain fields (I would guess these would be the ones with the larger openings).

So there would not have been much demand for hoisting of harrows, etc. I am guessing that some of the grain field might even have been turned over manually by spading and adze work (which I have done and you can cover a surprising amount of area in a day - provided there is ibuprofen available )

[SteveP]

The take home message is that most of the fields were livestock enclosures (BF give us moving sheep and cows or sumfink!) and orchards. There were some grain fields (I would guess these would be the ones with the larger openings).

Thank you for the info. I struggled with that a bit in designing this map. It does have an effect on what can be done tactically, though I think the scenario still works in a realistic way. I will keep what you say in mind as I tweak the next Bocage aux Folles scenario.