House to House fighting.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Blackcat - This is really easy to reproduce.

Load up the Demo and play the "Road to Berlin" scenario. You'll get two Shermans, an MG, several squads of riflemen, etc. Put one or two squads up against the building on the right side of the courtyard. Take the MG and whatever is left and put them behind the low wall right next to the road. Order a Target Light on the house or the spot in front of the house. The guys will be completely pinned in less than a minute. I tried it multiple times and it happened every single time.

Here's a screenshot. This is ONE rifle squad with a Target Light command on the building behind the highlighted squad. Note that the suppression meter is almost full, and nearly every single soldier in the squad is cowering. Using two squads, an MG, or a squad and an MG results in very quick suppression. Usually less than a minute.

[Peach Operations]

I thought that Battlefront had stated that small-arms friendly fire wasn't going to be part of CMx2 -- at least, with CMSF. Has that changed?

[Magpie_Oz]

I thought that Battlefront had stated that small-arms friendly fire wasn't going to be part of CMx2 -- at least, with CMSF. Has that changed?

Pretty sure that is the case, I think some guys have done some tests and below certain calibres there is no friendly fire.

[Blackcat]

"Load up the Demo and play the "Road to Berlin" scenario. You'll get two Shermans, an MG, several squads of riflemen, etc. Put one or two squads up against the building on the right side of the courtyard. Take the MG and whatever is left and put them behind the low wall right next to the road. Order a Target Light on the house or the spot in front of the house. The guys will be completely pinned in less than a minute. I tried it multiple times and it happened every single time."

Mr. Griswold,

Alas, I no longer have the demo on my machine so I can't replicate your example. I have replicated something very similar to it with both German and US troops. What I saw, and I guess what you are seeing, is the effect of ricochets. These will cause casualties and suppression. They seem, seem, to occur at different frequencies depending on the matrial the building is made out of.

I still cannot reproduce any direct suppression on friendly units from small arms or .30/7.62 machine guns. AKD says he can. In one of his examples he got a whole squad in a building cowering and cautious with 10-15 seconds worth of fire from a single MG - I wish I could get that sort of result on enemy units. AKD also says that he did some of his tests using a new version of the software. It may be, therefore, that he is a beta tester and presumably knows what he is talking about.

If you chose to believe that freindly small arms fire does cause suppression then you will no doubt adjust your style of play to ensure that moving units do not cross into the path of friendly fire (fire lanes and movement lanes when on the advance and so forth).

For myself, this point has already taken up far too much of my gaming time and until I actually see examples of my units suffering from friendly rifle-calibre fire in the game, I shall carry on with the tactics and techniques that have worked to date.

[phil stanbridge]

I am not prepared to be so dogmatic about ricochets. All I will say is that there were plenty in the above tests and no one got hurt.

I was absolutely stunned when I had a commander unit incapacitated by a ricochet from my own MG42 suppressing fire! It was quite bizzare as the ricochet actually landed quite some distance from the house I was targetting. I studied the WEGO replay time and time again because I have never seen that before.

[akd]

"Load up the Demo and play the "Road to Berlin" scenario. You'll get two Shermans, an MG, several squads of riflemen, etc. Put one or two squads up against the building on the right side of the courtyard. Take the MG and whatever is left and put them behind the low wall right next to the road. Order a Target Light on the house or the spot in front of the house. The guys will be completely pinned in less than a minute. I tried it multiple times and it happened every single time."

Mr. Griswold,

Alas, I no longer have the demo on my machine so I can't replicate your example. I have replicated something very similar to it with both German and US troops. What I saw, and I guess what you are seeing, is the effect of ricochets. These will cause casualties and suppression. They seem, seem, to occur at different frequencies depending on the matrial the building is made out of.

"1 Training - Roadblock" in the release version is the same scenario.

[womble]

So, the lack of results Blackcat was getting with his tests inspired me to do one of my own. Happy to mail the btt to anyone who PMs me.

Environment:

Flat sand. I thought it would have the least chance of ricochets, and after several minutes of testing, my guinea pigs haven't sustained any casualties, so I think this is a fair assumption.

Bit of bocage, bit of high stone wall. To line them up against if I wasn't getting the results I thought I might on flat sand.

Two platoons of Ami leg infantry, plus their company MGs. 1 Sherman.

One team split off one platoon. All fire orders 'Target Light'.

Narrative results:

With an entire platoon and two MG squads area firing at the guinea pig team from about 80-100m, there was immediate and significant suppression on the meter. What was odd, though, was that by the end of the first minute, suppression effects had almost completely tailed off, an through the next couple of minutes of 'just firing' only occasionally ticked up to one or two lines on the meter. I wondered if one or more of the firing squads had used a Rifle Grenade, but they all still have their starting three.

I tried a few minutes firing with just the MMGs, and still didn't get any suppression.

Watching the target area closely, I noticed that there were not many bullets actually impacting in or around the target area. I guessed that this was because the firing units were now prone, firing at prone targets and 99% of the bullets were going through the target action spot.

So I stopped all fire, and had the three squads of the firing platoon "Assault" past the Action Spot, with area fire orders into the guinea pigs' location. This soon produced suppression and cowering, and a significant amount of 'bullet splash' in the Action Spot where the guinea pigs were lying. As the moving squads reached their eventual destinations, the suppression effect once again tailed off as they went prone, even though several teams ended up in adjacent APs.

And then it was the Tank's turn. After reversing up to 100m away, while buttoning up (to exclude the known killer Ma-deuce from the equation), I had it spray the target area with its two .30cals. At 100m, there was markedly more 'bullet splash' in the AP, and a low level of suppression, sustained over the space of a few minutes. Then I had the tank move forward at slow. As it got closer, and the angle of incidence of the bullet streams with the ground increased, the suppression level leapt up until they were pinned and cowering, with morale at cautious.

Conclusion:

It's all about the bullet splash.

[ClarkWGriswold]

What I saw, and I guess what you are seeing, is the effect of ricochets. These will cause casualties and suppression. They seem, seem, to occur at different frequencies depending on the matrial the building is made out of.

Different effects due to different building materials would make sense, if the suppression is being caused by ricochets. Thick stone walls will ricochet more rounds than a fence or a thin walled building.

I still cannot reproduce any direct suppression on friendly units from small arms or .30/7.62 machine guns. AKD says he can. In one of his examples he got a whole squad in a building cowering and cautious with 10-15 seconds worth of fire from a single MG - I wish I could get that sort of result on enemy units.

There are actually at least three of us in this thread that all see the same thing: suppression from friendly small arms fire (.30 cal and smaller). So, it's not just AKD who's saying this.

AKD also says that he did some of his tests using a new version of the software. It may be, therefore, that he is a beta tester and presumably knows what he is talking about.

I believe he said he saw the behavior on a beta version, but that he also tested with v1.00 to make sure behavior was the same. What he saw in v1.00 was consistent with what everyone else (except you, it seems) is seeing.

If you chose to believe that freindly small arms fire does cause suppression then you will no doubt adjust your style of play to ensure that moving units do not cross into the path of friendly fire (fire lanes and movement lanes when on the advance and so forth).

For myself, this point has already taken up far too much of my gaming time and until I actually see examples of my units suffering from friendly rifle-calibre fire in the game, I shall carry on with the tactics and techniques that have worked to date.

I'm not sure what would have to be done to convince you, but we've got multiple people running multiple different tests and all seeing the same results: suppression from friendly small arms fire.

[Blackcat]

"I'm not sure what would have to be done to convince you, but we've got multiple people running multiple different tests and all seeing the same results: suppression from friendly small arms fire."

You do not have to convince me. I am not arguing a position. I only posted on this thread in an attempt to try and be helpful to the OP. With regard to friendly suppression I know what happens with small arms fire in my games and I now know a bit more about the effecs of ricochets. I have tried to replicate AKD's direct supression and can't so I won't be changing the way I play. I am quite happy, thanks.

[womble]

And so to the Bocage.

Same map (Bocage? In the desert?!), team up against the Bocage. Platoon's three rifle squads area Target Lighting up the action point from the same side.

Result: Almost instant pin. Lots of 'bullet splash' on the foliage and the berm from the prone (except for one guy) firing elements. Still no ricochets. Move a second team up to orthoganally adjacent, one AP away from the hedge row and they sustain orange suppression after about 20 seconds, and don't get pinned.

And the wall:

First, firing at the AP of the team nose-up to the wall, they sustain no suppression, and no casualties in the first minute of firing, in spite of bullets whizzing round their ears and ricochets all over the place. This is with the tank (no .50). The infantry are out of ammo Second minute, I drop the point of aim of the tank so it's the AP adjacent to where the infantry are, one away from the wall. This lower aim point drops the point of impact on the wall so that some ricochets go into the ground, and some bullets drop short, making 'spatter' on the sand. There is about 50% suppression meter.

Conclusion:

If the bullets make spatter around your troops, they will sustain suppression. Wall hits don't count as 'spatter'. Ricochet kills aren't common.

Further testing:

Foliage generates spatter, so being under overhead cover with grazing fire whizzing through might generate suppression. 'Pends if 'overhead' counts as 'adjacent' or 'in the same AP' or neither.

At no point were rounds heavier than .45 ACP/M2 ball fired in any of these tests. Area fire is aimed at waist height and level ground won't generate any spatter, so you won't see any suppression when moving through 'lanes of fire'; it's only the bullet's final landing point which generates suppression. Some terrain types don't generate spatter so you won't see any suppression.

[ClarkWGriswold]

Area fire is aimed at waist height and level ground won't generate any spatter, so you won't see any suppression when moving through 'lanes of fire'; it's only the bullet's final landing point which generates suppression. Some terrain types don't generate spatter so you won't see any suppression.

I think this is the real thing to take away from these tests. I've seen the suppression effects a lot during gameplay, but generally only when assaulting a building and using overwatch squads to suppress the enemy. As soon as my guys get close to the building the impacts/ricochets suppress them and they turn around, cower, disobey orders, etc. There seem to be a few workarounds to this problem:

1) Have your overwatch squads stop firing before you assault the building. Unfortunately, this is very difficult in WeGo play because you cannot time firing orders like you can for movement orders.

2) Assault from a direction that will not expose troops to splash effect. Of course, this is nearly impossible due to the nature of most buildings in CMBN. Most have doors on only one side or on opposing sides. There's very little chance you can suppress from one side and assault from the opposite side.

3) Move your men as quickly as possible through the splash zone, and use high quality, high morale, in-C2 troops that are less likely to suppress, pin, or panic before you can call off your overwatch squads' target orders.

Probably the most effective lesson from this thread is to only use Target Light for suppression fire if you're going to have friendly troops anywhere nearby. Light weapons fire won't cause friendly casualties, but .50 cal, grenades, rifle grenades, bazooka rounds, etc. WILL cause friendly casualties, and all of these may be used with the Target command, but will not fire with Target Light.

[ClarkWGriswold]

If the bullets make spatter around your troops, they will sustain suppression. Wall hits don't count as 'spatter'. Ricochet kills aren't common.

I'm not sure that the bolded portion is true. AKD and I have both seen men inside a building become suppressed from friendly fire. We know that rounds whizzing by the mens' heads doesn't suppress, so this has to either be from the rounds impacting the wall outside or rounds going through the windows and impacting inside the room. The latter seems unlikely, though possible.

Edit: I ran a little test to confirm. I put a squad of men on the 2nd floor of a brick building and had two squads and an MG with Target Light orders at the 2nd floor only. I checked, and no rounds were impacting the ground. I saw few if any hitting the first floor. Still, the men in the building were pinned and cowering in short order. You're able to see little puffs when bullets go through the windows and hit the wall behind the targeted squad. I don't think there were nearly enough of those to pin a whole squad so quickly, so the rounds impacting the outside wall are the only explanation I can think of.

[womble]

I'm not sure that the bolded portion is true. AKD and I have both seen men inside a building become suppressed from friendly fire.

Sorry, I perhaps should have been more specific. I was referring to the "High Stone Wall" I popped into my scenario. I can totally believe that building walls (and, indeed, Low Stone Walls) could behave in a slightly or totally different way. But In 5 minutes of 'level' fire at a High Stone Wall from a Sherman I didn't see a single 'spatter' (they're quite distinctive) and there was exactly zero suppression of the team through which the bullets were passing to hit and either pass through (could be WeGo approximations, there) or bounce off (with none of those ricochets causing harm to the troopers). Again, I stress this is with the specific "High Stone Wall", not any other kind of wall...

Edit: I ran a little test to confirm. I put a squad of men on the 2nd floor of a brick building and had two squads and an MG with Target Light orders at the 2nd floor only. I checked, and no rounds were impacting the ground. I saw few if any hitting the first floor. Still, the men in the building were pinned and cowering in short order. You're able to see little puffs when bullets go through the windows and hit the wall behind the targeted squad. I don't think there were nearly enough of those to pin a whole squad so quickly, so the rounds impacting the outside wall are the only explanation I can think of.

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>

The above approach is my adaptation of a technique developed by Chainsaw in CMSF (see "Assaulting Buildings Fast and Agile" here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=82927) and I find it works pretty well. Urban combat was and is a sod in the real world and it is in CMBN, unfortuately in both it is often necessary. Good technique will minimise your casualties, but you will burn through ammo.

I had trouble this morning following Chainsaw's instructions for targeting the floor above during the actual building clearing.

In the step:

3. Squads attack route.

I was able to create the assault commands through the door to the first floor, then to the second floor and then the third floor but when I selected the first floor way point I was not able to target the second floor. I got the ghost buster symbol saying there was no line of sight there. Same for second floor way point targeting the third floor.

This is my first time trying this technique so it is more likely that I am missing something. Has anyone else had success setting up building clearing commands like Chainsaw's setup?