womble Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Situation: You are a member of a lone HQ team defending a hedge. You have, in the last 2 minutes, had all 3 of your teammates killed by the fire of a score of (BAR-heavy) teams and 3 or 4 M5 light tanks through the bocage. Three of those teams are within 10m on the other side of the bocage, and one of the M5s has its nose pushed against the berm of the hedge and its guns poking through. This same M5 accurately murdered a sniper team in full view of you a couple of minutes ago behind the next hedge when they didn't surrender. The TC of the Stuart unbuttons and pokes his head out Question: Do you - a) hunker down and hope no one sees you and their unaimed fire continues to avoid your current hidey-hole? throw your Schmeisser out the bush you're in and surrender? c) leap to your knees, smear some lead streaks on the glacis of the tank and get butchered by a hail of .30M2 and .45 ACP? Woo; you made the TC button up. Are the Germans in "Bumper Cars" fanatics? Cos they certainly ain't surrenderin'. The sniper had been under constant suppression by two entire platoons and 4 Stuarts for minutes (yes, I'm probably going to have to try this scenario again, I think; I've gone at it too slow and steady, but I'm hopeful I can speed up if I can successfully turn their flank - we shall see) before it got flanked by a Stuart (which they'd watched roar down the length of the field and largely unscathed through a mine field) coming through a gap. Any team I've ever had would have been Broken, it seems to me, even though no casualties had actually been sustained. Certainly losing 3 of 4 and being horribly repressed ^h^h^h suppressed for a while seems to have been enough to break my units in previous games. Are teams supposed to fight to the last man against insuperable odds (not even causing any casualties to cheer themselves back up) like this? I'd've thought it should be rare. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well if you believed that the enemy took no prisoners .... which is a possilbe belief and in some cases not wide of the mark during parts of the campaign. You belonged to the Hitler Jugend. However before we say it is broke ... There might be an argument that in RL under continual fire he has no opportunity to surrender. However I cannot conceive how you could call a ceasefire for the relevant US troops within the game engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I was on the receiving of a German Rambo. End of a scenario v AI and the enemy was done. Everything was broken and it was clean-up time. A lone German that was still fighting fled some of my units straight it a field to it's rear that two of my squads had just entered. My units didn't spot it straight away and it chucked a nade which suppressed BOTH squads even though they had good separation causing four casualties in one. It then Schmeissered 8 more guys for good measure before someone recovered and took him down. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Well if you believed that the enemy took no prisoners .... which is a possilbe belief and in some cases not wide of the mark during parts of the campaign. You belonged to the Hitler Jugend. If I'm not mistaken, the general choice for the Whermacht was to surrender rather than face certain death However before we say it is broke ... There might be an argument that in RL under continual fire he has no opportunity to surrender. However I cannot conceive how you could call a ceasefire for the relevant US troops within the game engine. In the situation presented, the German just needed to throw his weapon away, At the time he was so hunkered down he wasn't even spotted (I know he wouldn't know that, but he'd found a place safe from unaimed fire, just to still be alive unlike his squaddies by that stage). As has been said in other threads, surrender was and is trained for; it's a military inevitability that some of your troops will face capture. I've seen troops at the end of scenarios when the general morale is already lowered surrender successfully in similar situations. The sniper team would have been the 3rd and 4th casualty inflicted that I'm aware of (and I've not fired any mortars yet, though suppressive fire has taken out an MG team I never even got a '?' for and don't think I received any fire from. And I've seen squads run back and forth across open fields between a Sherman and a rifle squad, shedding numbers until the last one was dead, a minute or two before the AI threw in the towel. They weren't even returning any fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 If I'm not mistaken, the general choice for the Whermacht was to surrender rather than face certain death But he wasn't a general! : ) Seriously general cannot rule out the exception so until there is a stack more data the case remains moot. However it is a known bug with tank crews that is being addressed. I do wonder if the ballsyness is actually a reflection of the CM:SF code were being taken a prisoner for the US troops was not a good option. But as I never played CM:SF I have no idea as to the fanaticism of the troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 What you call hedgerow Hell, he calls home! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm not sure of his chances for survival at that point if he tried to surrender, they might not realize he is unarmed or might "not realize" that he is unarmed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 But he wasn't a general! : ) Seriously general cannot rule out the exception so until there is a stack more data the case remains moot. Oh, absolutely, but so far, for me, the exception remains surrender (apart from at the end when the whole side collapses). However it is a known bug with tank crews that is being addressed. Yeah, I know about that. It was an AC crew that got closest to my positions in the demo where the Germans are on the offensive (forgotten its name). He just kept charging, the moment he'd rallied from whatever parlous morale state he was in. Eventually, I gave up suppressing him (largely through lack of working MGs...) and he came barrelling through the orchard to be shot in the face. I do wonder if the ballsyness is actually a reflection of the CM:SF code were being taken a prisoner for the US troops was not a good option. But as I never played CM:SF I have no idea as to the fanaticism of the troops. I'd hope the parameters have been tweaked a bit in the new environment. Anyway, I'm mostly asking these questions to try and understand the game a bit better. Hell, maybe when (if) I look in the scenario once I'm done with it, I'll find a fanatical Plt HQ and Sniper team 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodkin Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 There was no surrending in CMSF however there was routing where your troops would disappear with a large red '!' sign over them after they'd been broken to the point of throwing down their weapons and running away. The scenario designer decides what level of motivation a unit can have so at 'fanatic' level I presume you would see the type of irrational behaviour people are mentioning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 There was no surrending in CMSF however there was routing where your troops would disappear with a large red '!' sign over them after they'd been broken to the point of throwing down their weapons and running away. The scenario designer decides what level of motivation a unit can have so at 'fanatic' level I presume you would see the type of irrational behaviour people are mentioning. Certainly, the manual says Fanatic troops will never surrender, and it's entirely possible that Jari put some Fanatical units in. Maybe I'll look and find out once I've finished the scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I just finished the scenario "A Strange Awakening". I had 2 German HQ's surrender. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Certainly, the manual says Fanatic troops will never surrender, and it's entirely possible that Jari put some Fanatical units in. Maybe I'll look and find out once I've finished the scenario. Yes, that would be useful information to have. What scenario is it that you're having trouble with? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Yes, that would be useful information to have. What scenario is it that you're having trouble with? 'Bumper Cars', the 4th mission in the "Courage and Fortitude" campaign. Edit: and it's not 'trouble', so much as 'puzzlement'. The broken unit dashing back and forth in the open in front of a Sherman and a sqaud-equivalent of infantry was in "School of Hard Knocks"; one of the German left flank foxhole infantry teams/squads. Details are only hazily recalled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PondScum Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Ha! Same scenario, I flanked a German platoon HQ behind bocage (maybe the same one?), and proceeded to butcher them with long-range rifle fire into their exposed rear. Four minutes later one of them was STILL alive, periodically popping up to plink off a shot, then ducking down. Meanwhile my platoon was burning through ammo, and I was getting twitchy about having enough for the next campaign mission. So I decided to send in a Stuart over the fields behind him. Rolled it up to just a few meters away, blazing away. The #@!^& survivor throws a grenade, taking the Stuart's tracks down from green to half-red with a single blast and making the crew nervous. Of course, the Stuart's two MGs promptly hosed him down, but now it could barely crawl away, and was effectively mission-killed for the rest of that scenario. SPOILER FOR THE MISSION . . . . . . . . . I sent my starting platoons on a big right hook to the far-right objective. From there they worked their way inwards, flanking every enemy position in turn. Meanwhile my weapons platoon edged slowly forwards on the left, supported by the Stuarts, until the two reinforcement platoons arrived and I could start pushing in earnest. Eventually I had both forces close in on the crossroads in the middle. I also used my excess of jeeps to drive ahead of infantry and "spot" for mines in obvious choke-points - they take wheel damage, but the driver normally survives 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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