LoS Problem?

[Hetzer21]

I filmed this, for clarity. I know the game, by necessity, abstracts some stuff. Crews cutting holes in bushes etc etc etc, but this seems a bit odd and I can see it causing ructions if it happened in an MP game where a player deliberately pathed a vehicle thinking it safe from the specific PaK. The PaK was originally firing down the road 45-degrees right, knocked out a Sherman down it earlier. Then it somehow spotted the Sherman it was firing on before I took the footage. I don't need to describe the conditions, they're clear in the footage. Something needs tweaking perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvc_DW5iG0M

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I dunno. Big Sherman behind low bocage and the odd bush and tree. Would not seem to be totally unspottable to me.

[Hetzer21]

But the PaK is already directly behind a huge Bocage hedge. That alone, unless the crew had hacked a big slot in it, would preclude seeing anything. I say hacked a slot in it, the crew are actually below the level of the hedge itself. I visited the Bocage shortly before the French destroyed most of it and the earth part was pretty high.

It might have been a one-off, won't know until I've had more time with the game.

Most of the rants and rages we used to have playing CMBB etc was "how could he NOT have seen him!?" The answer was abstraction, that while the player could see a target we were supposed to remember that the game supposed more foliage than the player could see. This case seems to be the opposite, the game is seeing LESS foliage than the player. Study the footage, I cannot see that as being right. But if it's a one-off, not a biggie. If it's indicative of general experience though, it'll be a problem. That PaK swung its barrel INTO the bocage, spotted the tank through multiple onstructions and whacked it. If I was a player in control of that tank I'd have been heaving my monitor through a window while screaming blue murder.

Not really.

[gunnergoz]

The game seems to regard that if a unit (infantry or vehicle) butts right up next to bocage, there is some ability to see through it and yet still some concealment, at least until the unit gives itself away by firing through the bocage.

[jhmorneau]

Yep, it is a game abstraction. Manual, p. 34, "A word on bocage" :

"- Bocage will block LOS and LOF unless directly adjacent to the bocage"

So, AFAIK, a unit adjacent to a bocage tile will see through it without any penalty.

[Hetzer21]

Well, I guess that nicely covers the old "Of course my men would have bloody well cut holes through that so they could see!"

[Woest]

Well that explains the bocage, but not the trees and bushes. I just played the mission from the first VAAR where i was suprised that the enemy pak on the far right on the hill could see my tanks through all those trees.

I am guesing that trees are also part of the game abstraction.

[Battlefront.com]

The trees are literally simulated, but there is a little "slop" to account for the fact that in real life trees are pretty much all over the spectrum in terms of height, branch structure, leaf density, etc. If the trees are present without significant ground cover, then they are effectively a "tree farm". Which is to say that someone deliberately maintains the trees in a way that minimizes under story vegetation and lower limbs. You can sometimes see for dozens of meters in such conditions. At least when the two units are at roughly the same elevation.

Also remember that LOS/LOF is two way. If you can see out from vegetation then the target absolutely has a chance of seeing you. It's the chances of Spotting that are very different for each unit. The unit within the trees has a vastly greater amount of cover/concealment than anything out in the open. But it's not perfect.

Steve

[Woest]

thx for the explanation, btw it was the first AAR so not a video version.

Well the problem was that i never expected that units on that part of the hill could see me, so i never checked it with the target command.

Always expect the unexpected

[gunnergoz]

This game does teach you that assume "makes an @ss out of u and me."