Growing pot is harmful to the environment!

[dieseltaylor]

I thought this was faintly amusing.

Weed may not be as green as you think. Indoor marijuana growing operations in the United States are massive energy hogs, consuming some $5 billion worth of electricity each year, according to a new report.

That’s about 1 percent of the nation’s total power consumption.

The problem, according to efficiency firm Energy Associates, is that the pot industry is almost entirely prohibited in the U.S., keeping it hidden from regulators and, by extension, efficiencies in agricultural production.

Study author and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory scientist Evan Mills writes that the average grow operation approaches 200 watts per square foot — enough to power a modern data center.

What’s more, a single joint contains the equivalent of about 2 lbs. of carbon dioxide emissions.

Mills writes (.pdf):

If improved practices applicable to commercial agricultural greenhouses are any indication, such large amounts of energy are not required for indoor cannabis production. Cost-effective efficiency improvements of 75 percent are conceivable.

Marijuana is considered the nation’s largest cash crop, with an estimated production value of $40 billion annually. At that scale, energy savings are significant: California’s indoor cultivation alone results in a carbon emissions equivalent of putting an additional 1 million cars on the road for a year.

It’s an interesting catch-22: if an industry is out of sight, can it really be regulated?

It makes me wonder. Taxable revenue source and a diminishing in crime on the upside. Downsides? Psychotic dangers - possibly alleviated by a better procesing. Difficult to say it is worse than alcohol as a drug.

[YankeeDog]

I personally have come to the viewpoint that, much like the Prohibition, the outright ban on cannabis production and use in the United States is, as a whole, counterproductive and detrimental to our economy and society.

To be sure, the drug does have its dangers. I don't use it and I wouldn't use it if it were legal. But I'm not at all convinced that the negative effects of the drug justify an outright ban, especially when compared to the legal recreational drugs alcohol and tobacco.

It seems to me that, for many reasons, having production and distribution legalized (but highly regulated) would be a net better situation for the country as a whole. This whole energy usage thing is just another stone on the pile.

Unfortunately, I don't expect a serious discussion at the national level about changing the drug laws regarding cannabis will come anytime soon. While there is momentum at the state level in some areas to legalize, it would still be political suicide for a major party candidate for president to explicitly express support for cannabis legalization.

[abneo3sierra]

Well..smoking it is harmful to your brain cells lol..so this should not be a "too big" surprise.

[dieseltaylor]

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabis.aspx

This is very useful and does explore in detail the risks - which particularly affect those under 20. However what it does not do is look at the medicinal types in isolation so one is left a little bemused as to what might be ascribed to different strengths. methods of use. I have never tried it so I cannot comment on it from personal experience. My own philosophy has always been to avoid stuff that makes me appear stupider or unhealthy [tobacco], : )

[Lt Belenko]

Years ago aluminum cans were recycled because the production of Al required 5% of the all electricity.

Who would have guessed it, pot and beer account for 10% of the electricity.

Next week they release a study on porn and bacon using another 10%.

[Stalins Organ]

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabis.aspx

This is very useful and does explore in detail the risks - which particularly affect those under 20.

Legalise it and have as many parents, old hippies & baby-boomers smoke & munch it as possible - that way the kids won't touch it!

[JonS]

That’s about 1 percent of the nation’s total power consumption.

No one thinks that figure is a little ... off?

A quick web search: 22 million pounds of marijuana was produced in the US in 2006. Compared to 600,000,000,000 pounds of corn produced. Not that people grow corn indoors. OK, then how about chicken eggs as a valid comparison? The vast majority of egg farms are indoors, requiring light and heat/AC, etc. 2006 production was approximately 1.1 billion pounds of eggs. About 50x. So, did chicken egg farming take up 50% of all electricity production? Doubtful. Someone at Lawrence Livermore is playing too much Wii and smoking too much homegrown.

[dieseltaylor]

Egg production. I would have thought that for the very reason they can be open the egg factories are optimally geared. Use of windows and natural light, the heat generated by the chickens must be considerable .... I don't think it as obviously daft.

But probably a little suspect : )

Incidentally whats pounds of eggs to a chicken x one year ?

[JonS]

ok, so halve it. Egg production consumes a quarter of all electricity in the US.

[Affentitten]

Eggs also require washing, packaging, heavy transport....

Diesel, use of windows and natural light is dependent on where you are and what time of year. Most egg facilities are just like big factories.

As for legalising and the dangers.....well, I think the gear is a lot more potent than the stuff I was smoking a couple of decades ago. The dangers are therefore increasing. Certainly I recall a (non-professional!) conversation I had with a psychiatric nurse a couple of years ago. He said that the amount of cannabis induced psychosis they see these days is increasing. The higher THC yields of the new hybrids and the volumes people were consuming was exacerbating exisiting mental illnesses.

But then I saw in the paper today that E is now more popular than pot in Australia. So that must be a good thing, right?

[costard]

If you take mental illness as a deviaton from the norm, any sane person is in real trouble right now. As far as pot goes, it has real and detrimental effects on the brain's ability to supply functional recall to the individual - I expect it will turn out to be prime suspect in the search for the cause of Alzheimer's.

An industry not subject to taxation, reliant on relationships founded in mutual trust (and sustained through the continuation of those relationships) making the top spot in US cash crops? No! How?! The business model is obviously flawed!

[noxnoctum]

All I have to say is LOL.

I predict cannabis will be legal in at least Cali, Oregon or Washington state within the next 4 years. People are getting fed up with federal agents violating state law and raiding MMJ dispensaries.

As for "psychotic dangers" it's total BS. Although I don't smoke currently because it's illegal and I obey the law even though it's utterly insane, I have smoked for looooong periods of time daily and it hasn't affected me negatively in any way. There's also been numerous studies showing that very long term smokers have not been negatively affected. I personally know a college professor who smokes pretty much every day and has been since the 60s. Pot didn't stop him from getting his Phd. I just know far too many straight A students at universities or very very hard working people who are total stoners and have been for a long time to believe any of this. It's absurd. I mean even Carl Sagan smoked and favored its legalization and ya... that guy was a real airhead

Little quote from him:

"The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world."

It all comes down to the individual, and whether or not they have the self control to not get stoned when they shouldn't be getting stoned. When I decided to stop smoking because I didn't like breaking the law I went cold turkey after 6 months of continuous use and had absolutely no cravings unless you count a week later when I went to a concert thinking "you know... this would sound even MORE sweet if I was stoned right now...". That's it.

The government's full of crap. What's ironic is that when Aslinger was originally pushing for it to be outlawed the AMA actually OPPOSED him.

Positives of legalization:

-Gigantic tax $$$ for a completely broke government

-Huge savings in law enforcement and imprisonment costs. The USA has the highest % imprisoned population of any country in the world. Ya... we're in the "land of the free" Not to mention it frees up LE to be able to go after violent crimes. And you can BET those will go down with the legalization of cannabis.

-HUUUUGE hit to the drug cartels as cannabis makes up 60% of their business. Were the US to legalize it on a federal level many countries (I'm thinking Canada especially) would follow suit shortly. People fail to understand that when you outlaw something that's very popular (weed in this case, alcohol in the 30s) you don't make it go away, you just make organized crime explode.

-Control of exactly WHAT you're smoking. I know of a guy who's bipolar and literally the ONLY thing that makes it go away (a bandaid granted but a bandaid that works marvelously for him) is a certain very particular strain of cannabis available in Cali and the Netherlands only. So you get that plus no more weed laced with coke or other nonsense.

-Kids will have a harder time getting their hands on it. Poll after poll has shown that kids in high school say it's way easier to get pot than to get alcohol. With alcohol they have to either get a quality fake ID, find a corrupt seller, or get an older friend to do it. With pot they just go talk to the kid in their class who knows someone who knows someone. Or just go out on the street and look out for someone who looks like a drug dealer. (there are certain "signs" which I won't post on here )

-Likely downturn in alcohol and tobacco abuse as many will undoubtedly switch to pot or people who would otherwise become alcoholics/cigarette fiends will smoke weed instead. Less wifebeatings etc... The idea of getting angry and beating someone to within an inch of their life while stoned is ludacris. (I'm not suggesting we outlaw alcohol and tobacco btw... although those are absolutely lethal, it would just boost organized crime further and certainly wouldn't stop their use as the Prohibition showed)

It's absurd that this is still going on. It was outlawed to give the cotton industry a boost and was largely motivated by racism, pure and simple.

Really we need to legalize ALL drugs (yes even heroin, pcp, meth etc... not like everyone's gonna wanna start shooting up if it gets legalized, everyone knows it's terrible for you) and so completely put an end to the drug cartels and their private armies constantly waging war in Mexico and South America (and Russia). As it is they have the power of small countries. I was watching a documentary on how the Russian mob almost bought a Russian military sub they were going to use to sneak drugs into the USA. That's the kind of power they have (they were stopped by ATF agents). That power would go away literally overnight if all drugs were legalized.

And the "prime suspect" for Alzheimer's??? Are you kidding me??? The vast majority of the people that are getting Alzheimer's right now were NOT part of the flower child hippie generation. There have actually been studies that suggest it may help the symptoms of Alzheimer's.

Even if weed were as bad for you as the DEA and crazy right wing nuts would have you believe, outlawing it is still an idiotic idea. It's TOO POPULAR. It won't go away and never will. It's been in use for as long as recorded history and probably further back than that. It's not going away. So why just hand control and profits to people with no morals whatsoever?

This is EXACTLY the same situation as prohibition was in the 30s except it's even stupider because pot has not caused a single death in history. Alcohol causes around 90,000 a year in the US alone while tobacco causes nearly a quarter of a million. Hell even ibuprofen causes several thousand deaths a year. Cannabis? Zero. Zero deaths in history... think about that for a second. I don't think you could find a single serious unbiased doctor who would say cannabis is worse for you than tobacco and alcohol. (and you can vaporize it instead of smoking it to eliminate that risk... even though it's been shown that THC has anti-cancerous properties that largely prevent lung cancer in cannabis-only smokers) Not to mention that use actually went down in Amsterdam after legalization, probably because it took away the "forbidden fruit" factor. Tell someone they can't have something and they'll want it. That's human nature.

The only reason it hasn't been legalized yet in the US is because politicians are cowards (with a few exceptions: see Ron Paul) and are being essentially bribed by lobbyists from the tobacco and alcohol companies. Ever heard of the "Drug Free America Foundation"? They're the ones behind most of the anti-pot commercials you see on TV occasionally. Guess who funds them? Alcohol and tobacco companies, and big pharma. They don't want a drug free America, they want an America free of drugs that are their competition. I would also be HIGHLY surprised if the drug cartels aren't funding some lobbyists of their own through back channels.

Anyways, whatever, it'll be legalized for sure once enough of the "Reefer madness" indoctrinated old people (you guys ) die off. California came VERY close with 46% of the population voting in favor (and we all know young people have the worst voter turnout... if they had come out in droves it would have passed). The country's views on cannabis are changing for the better, finally, I'm glad I'm around to see the end of this.

/rant

P.S. @ Affentitten: Yes pot is stronger now because they've "perfected" it in various strains... you can now get seeds off the internet that show various potencies in certain areas. Some more relaxing, some more trippy etc. Some stronger some weaker. But the stronger strains aren't more "dangerous", it just means you only need one toke to get stoned, as opposed to smoking a whole joint like back in the 60s/70s (at least according to my parents, who are from that era).

Oh and by the way, any of you guys in favor of 2nd amendment rights who are against marijuana legalization are total and complete hypocrites. You can own a semi-automatic assault rifle but someone can't ingest something in their own body in the privacy of their own home? (I'm against gun control fyi, just making a point)

[abneo3sierra]

nox.. even while I think that it IS harmful, also, like you, because of observing people who have smoked it,and cannot really manage to do anything productive for half the day after smoking it, because of it(or, at least, that is the excuse they use lol) But even feeling it is harmful, I am with you, I think people should have the right to do, to their own selves, whatever they want, harmful or not. There is a pretty good argument to be made that marijuana is either "just as harmful" or, perhaps even "less harmful" than many other , quite legal habits, such as alcohol and tobacco products.

[Affentitten]

All I have to say is LOL.

As for "psychotic dangers" it's total BS.

WTF? I just did a 5 minute literature review and came up with all manner of evidence. Whilst there is still debate as to whether their is a discrete 'cannabis psychosis' in DSM terms, there is certainly a great deal of evidence linking cannabis use (particularly in teens) with later presentation of mental and psychotic epsiodes. The link between heavy cannabis use and schizophrenia is the main interest here. The implication is not that cannabis CAUSES schizophrenia or the like, but rather that it is heavily involved in exacerbating and manifesting psychotic episodes in those pre-disposed. Wihtout the cannabis use, some people would never have the trigger for their psychosis.

To say that you know professors etc who smoke a lot and they're OK is a childish argument. Just as my grandad smoked all his life and died of non-smoking causes at 87 doesn't mean tobacco is safe. There will always be people who can handle it and those who can't. But there is also the question as to what extra might have been achieved without the cannabis use too.

[noxnoctum]

EDIT: Posted huge post with a bunch of counter-arguments but decided it's silly to debate about. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Agree to disagree my friend .

[dieseltaylor]

Actually what you said nox was fair though you might have felt some was a litle too revealing.

As for teenagers I think the problem is more to do with the development of the brain which in males does not complete until @ 20. And on the basis you do not give certain drugs to babies because it affects the development then the same reasoning should apply to teens : )

However the fundamental problem would appear to be over consumption. This is a problem of rich societies where alcohol, drugs, food etc are very cheap in relation to shelter, warmth, and proper food. You have to admire a society such as the UK where people get their knickers in a twist over paying university fees but for most students that is actually roughly what they normally spend on pleasure of the drug, drink, CD's travel kind each year.

I think if cannabis was legalised it would be on balance probably a good thing. There of course need to be controls so that the state benefits enormously from the introduction by operating tied outlets. This will fund the clinics and raise revenue.

[funkeesax]

DISCLAIMER: I love both alcohol and marijuana. These days in moderation.

Alcohol is obviously far more dangerous and destructive than pot.

As someone who, in the course of their (still ongoing) youth, has smoked too much pot and drank too much booze, I can safely say I have never, when stoned:

1) Pissed on a cop car or yelled at a cop

2) Punched someone

3) Passed out in a strange place

4) Lost my wallet, iphone, passport, dignity.

I have done all of those things while "enjoying" the socially and politically acceptable drug known as alcohol.

To everyone talking about the mental effects of pot, are you effing kidding me? Do you KNOW what booze does to your brain and all of your other internal organs? Dig up as much literature as you want, booze is poison. The hangover is proof. I would bet the higher rates of mental illness have more to do with higher rates of alcohol consumption than they do marijuana. There are so many other factors in a person's life that contribute to mental illness.

Does pot have negative health impacts? For sure. Smoke too much and you'll get bronchitis. You start to lose your ability to remember things clearly (this comes back by the way, when you stop smoking 8 joints a day). It can make you tired and kind of slow. If health impacts are your justification for it's criminalization, fine. Let's make alcohol, cigarettes, fast food, and TV illegal too.

Now, I have grown up a lot in the past few years and am on a good path, and I try to enjoy responsibly. I know a lot of you guys are older and probably enjoy a tasty beer or two every now and then. And that's great. I do too. But maybe you forget how destructive booze can be. I invite you to come out to a younger club or bar with me one friday night, and you can witness first hand your kids getting fuuuuuuuuu… up. And then you can multiply what you see by 7 because that sh*t is going on every. single. night. The following week we can smoke a joint and listen to your music of choice, maybe play a game of CM?

In one of these situations, you'll see police presence, people fighting and pissing in public, people hooking up when they shouldn't be and not being safe about it (sometimes this walks the fine line between concensual and rape), the list goes on. In the other you'll giggle and eat ice cream and play combat mission and then fall asleep.

You can tell me which one you think has more potential to create harm and destruction in our society. I'll give you a hint: it rhymes with falcohol.

Should kids smoke it? no. Just like kids shouldn't chug a 2-6 of rye with their buddies. But they'll do it anyway. Its called making mistakes and it's how we grow. And honestly, how many of you would trade those memories (or lack thereof) in for something else?

The economic cost of fighting the war on pot is more damaging than the drug could ever be. All of the violence around pot comes from its illegality and resulting high price. Growers and gangs can't go to the cops if they get ripped off, so they have to resort to their own violent means. Kind of reminds me of a time when another drug was made illegal in the 1920s…what was it again??

It's not even an argument. If you believe booze should be legal and regulated, there is no logical way you can be against the same thing for marijuana.

If you've never tried pot before, I'm very sorry but you really have no business talking about its effects.

Okay end rant! Back to dreaming about CMBN...

[noxnoctum]

^^^ Pretty much said everything I wanted to say but better.

[abneo3sierra]

I think that the argument that alcohol does more damage, is valid, but is also not a good argument in favor of pot..both pretty well cause problems..however, the fact that alcohol is legal,while pot is not, is a bit "unfair", I agree. My only guess why this may be so, is that it is probably easier for governments to regulate alcohol producing companies(ie..tax them :-) ) while people can grow marijuana in their yards, and thus "cheat" the government out of its taxes...however, in my view, even if unable to tax the product, government could probably save a lot of its money (saving money is the same as earning it) by not having to enforce this particular law. I would argue that it would NOT stop the drug wars in, for example, Mexico,however, as legal or not, they would still be fighting over the market here...though it MAY slow it down, as people here would be allowed to grow their own,also.

[Michael Emrys]

Taxing it would be a bit tricky at first since the people who have worked out techniques to conceal their operations could continue to do so. However, there are existing laws to deal with people who evade taxation, and eventually it would come down to it being more economical to grow and distribute it openly and legally than to remain underground.

Michael

[noxnoctum]

I think that the argument that alcohol does more damage, is valid, but is also not a good argument in favor of pot..both pretty well cause problems..however, the fact that alcohol is legal,while pot is not, is a bit "unfair", I agree. My only guess why this may be so, is that it is probably easier for governments to regulate alcohol producing companies(ie..tax them :-) ) while people can grow marijuana in their yards, and thus "cheat" the government out of its taxes...however, in my view, even if unable to tax the product, government could probably save a lot of its money (saving money is the same as earning it) by not having to enforce this particular law. I would argue that it would NOT stop the drug wars in, for example, Mexico,however, as legal or not, they would still be fighting over the market here...though it MAY slow it down, as people here would be allowed to grow their own,also.

Growing any plant isn't exactly easy, and cannabis is one of the "less tough" plants out there... what would happen after legalization is, my guess, everyone would very quickly decide not to bother with the effort after a month of dead plants and decide to just buy from the major growers (which would be taxed).

No difference from tobacco really. You can grow your own tobacco plants but how many people do you see doing that? Not many. Likewise, you don't see many people brewing their own beer.

The law that California tried to pass allowed for individual citizens (i.e. not companies) to grow as much as they wanted in their backyard within a 3 foot square space (I think that was the size) which is enough for probably around 8 plants.

But ya, the vast majority of people would just go with "official" growers because the quality would be almost certainly be better and they could buy whatever particular strain they wanted. (out of hundreds, probably thousands)

Growing your own plants would require a lot of equipment and effort. I just don't see most people doing it, unless they're already into horticulture.

The argument in comparison to alcohol is completely valid even if you believe alcohol and pot cause equal harm (no doctor in the world would say this... 90,000 deaths yearly in the US from alcohol, zero deaths from pot in recorded history), because the drug cartels are the current version of Al Capone, except far more powerful, widespread in influence, and absolutely deadly.

If you believe alcohol and tobacco should be legal (or guns for that matter), you can't deny another person's right to ingest a different (less dangerous) substance in the privacy of their own home. It's not "in quotes" unfair, it's unfair. It's an obvious violation of the constitution and an individual's personal freedom.

Not to mention it being a gigantic waste of law enforcement's time. I'd rather see them focus all their attention on murders, rapists, and violent crime in general (a lot of which would go away with legalization---coke isn't anywhere near as popular weed)... wouldn't you?

Not to mention the enormous amount of money we would save from and running prisons to house all the drug-related convicts in. Said it before and I'll say it again, the US has the highest number of incarcerated citizens per capita in the world. That's beyond pathetic. It's disgusting.

[Michael Emrys]

Growing any plant isn't exactly easy, and cannabis is one of the "less tough" plants out there... what would happen after legalization is, my guess, everyone would very quickly decide not to bother with the effort after a month of dead plants...

That statement puzzled me at first, because the cannabis plant grows wild in most parts of the world and will do so without any care from a human grower at all. But maybe some of the more exotic strains that have been bred to maximize the potency of the THC have also become more frail. Perhaps with legalization, those strains will be crossbred with hardier but less potent strains to get a better balanced product.

Michael

[noxnoctum]

Ya the wild stuff though sucks . That's why I said a professional growing company would have the resources to release a much more quality product.

[abneo3sierra]

Growing any plant isn't exactly easy, and cannabis is one of the "less tough" plants out there... what would happen after legalization is, my guess, everyone would very quickly decide not to bother with the effort after a month of dead plants and decide to just buy from the major growers (which would be taxed).

No difference from tobacco really. You can grow your own tobacco plants but how many people do you see doing that? Not many. Likewise, you don't see many people brewing their own beer.

The law that California tried to pass allowed for individual citizens (i.e. not companies) to grow as much as they wanted in their backyard within a 3 foot square space (I think that was the size) which is enough for probably around 8 plants.

But ya, the vast majority of people would just go with "official" growers because the quality would be almost certainly be better and they could buy whatever particular strain they wanted. (out of hundreds, probably thousands)

Growing your own plants would require a lot of equipment and effort. I just don't see most people doing it, unless they're already into horticulture.

The argument in comparison to alcohol is completely valid even if you believe alcohol and pot cause equal harm (no doctor in the world would say this... 90,000 deaths yearly in the US from alcohol, zero deaths from pot in recorded history), because the drug cartels are the current version of Al Capone, except far more powerful, widespread in influence, and absolutely deadly.

If you believe alcohol and tobacco should be legal (or guns for that matter), you can't deny another person's right to ingest a different (less dangerous) substance in the privacy of their own home. It's not "in quotes" unfair, it's unfair. It's an obvious violation of the constitution and an individual's personal freedom.

Not to mention it being a gigantic waste of law enforcement's time. I'd rather see them focus all their attention on murders, rapists, and violent crime in general (a lot of which would go away with legalization---coke isn't anywhere near as popular weed)... wouldn't you?

Not to mention the enormous amount of money we would save from and running prisons to house all the drug-related convicts in. Said it before and I'll say it again, the US has the highest number of incarcerated citizens per capita in the world. That's beyond pathetic. It's disgusting.

Yes, did not mean to put unfair in quotation marks, just was not sure if it was the word I was looking for.

As for damage, I do not think that marijuana causes life/death type of damage, at least directly, while both tobacco, and alcohol, do. However, I have also seen far too many people too content to just do nothing in their life,while smoking it, so I would say that its particular damage is more specifically in destroying one's sense of ambition and responsibility. That said, though, as long as the people smoking it, are not then trying to live off of MY work, I have no problem with it. That cannot be said for a lot of them though, as out of the ..probably 12 people I know for certain who smoke it, 9 still live at home,depending upon their parents to support their lives, and the other three work near the poverty line, because they can never get a decent job,can never concentrate, etc. Not to mention the soldiers from a particular NATO ally I have worked with, who were quite incompetent in general,mostly because of that particular habit.

All of that said though, I am also sure that somewhere out there, are people who can smoke it,without letting it affect their life so much.

[YankeeDog]

I know quite a few people who smoke pot, in moderation but regularly (at least weekly), and still lead productive, responsible lives. Some of them are close friends. They may not be go-get-'em type-A personalities, but they hold down a job, pay their taxes and rent, and generally keep body and soul together. They're definitely above the 50th percentile on my personal "contributing member of society" scale.

And I also have known a few people who smoked pot really heavily, lost all ambition and interest, and completely ruined their lives. Most of them are dead now, not of pot specifically, but because they got so down and out that they got involved in more dangerous things (drugs or otherwise).

But I can say the same thing about Alcohol. And computer gaming, now that I think of it. I know a couple of people who completely wrecked their lives on MMPORPGs.

Which brings it back to what I said on p. 1, and what others have said: I really don't see pot as being significantly more destructive, on a personal or social level, than alcohol, or any of a number of other legal vices. And the outright legal prohibition on pot I think has significant social and financial costs to individuals and the nation as a whole. Net, we'd all be better off if pot were legal, but highly regulated.