Shooting through smoke.

[gunnersman]

Is shooting through smoke something that was likely to happen back in the day? Bil's Shermans in the current AAR are constantly popping smoke and it reminded me of many instances in CMBO where there was a clean shot until the smoke appeared and LOS was lost. There was nothing that could have stopped a round. You KNOW the target is still there you just can't see it.

I wonder if it is possible to let the shooter keep a temporary LOS on the shootee until getting one last round off and then losing LOS. Maybe just decrease the chances of a hit because of the smoke.

[Broadsword56]

You can always area fire into the smoky zone without LOS to anything, right? But it's less accurate then, as it should be.

[gunnersman]

I should be more specific.

In the current AAR, Bil's Panzer's are shooting at Capt's Sherman. The Sherman pop smoke and Bil's PIV's lose LOS right away (I assume it's a quick loss of LOS. That seems to be the case in CMSF). In one instance Bil's PIV already has had 3 shots at the Sherman while not knocking it out. The Sherman pops smoke and LOS is lost. It is still conceivable that one more shot could be fired from Bil's PIV and maybe even hit the Sherman if it does not move laterally from its current spot as the PIV's barrel already has the line on the Sherman. Yes?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

A similar system is already in for targeting infantry, who can get some additional small arms area-fired at them after they go to ground.

But versus vehicles that system might be less desirable. Whereas some extra rifle/MG ammo expenditure is nothing to worry about, a tank firing one of its last AP rounds blindly into smoke would make a player pretty unhappy.

All in all this feature would probably be more annoying then useful, I suspect.

[SD Smack]

Dude....you cant shoot through smoke! how do you know what you are going to hit????? but i agree you should be able to shoot through smoke with a very degraded hit probability.

Steve-o

[Sivodsi]

A similar system is already in for targeting infantry, who can get some additional small arms area-fired at them after they go to ground.

But versus vehicles that system might be less desirable. Whereas some extra rifle/MG ammo expenditure is nothing to worry about, a tank firing one of its last AP rounds blindly into smoke would make a player pretty unhappy.

All in all this feature would probably be more annoying then useful, I suspect.

Actually, this is one of the things I've wondered about. The tank pops smoke, but the player (and the soldier) knows that the tank is there, and that it couldn't have moved much. If I was in a PIV, you bet I would put my last AP round into the last known area, and maybe even guestimate where the sherman would be if it started reversing.

However, CM only allows you to area fire to where you have LOS, so it is not possible to shoot 'thru' the smoke, and besides you can only area fire HE so it would be less likely to have an effect on a tank.

But surely something could be done in such situations? Or is this not allowed because it would lead to 'gamey' play?

Also, I assume that in CMBN you have the same ability in CMSF to command an area fire onto an area: you fast up the rise of the hill and at the top waypoint command your tank to area fire onto a spot for 10 seconds, then plot the reverse point - you can still do this in CMBN, right?

In these situations, even if you are aiming at a spot where you know an enemy tank is, the AI will only use HE, you cannot select AP. Again, my question is whether this is done deliberately to reduce gamey behavior?

Because normally such precision would only be possible with the player's god like perspective, and even less precision in WW2 than with modern communications systems represented in CMSF.

[Battlefront.com]

We haven't figured an acceptable way around the Borg spotting problems associated with blind firing ordnance into smoke. Remember, the reason why people say to themselves "well, I know I could hit if I shot now at this point" is because they can see what is behind the smoke. Sure, sure, sure... I know that in some situations a good gunner would be able to make this sort of guess, but that's the problem we face... when should it be allowed and when shouldn't it be? And how to tell the TacAI about this?

It's a conundrum we haven't come up with an elegant answer for yet.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

In these situations, even if you are aiming at a spot where you know an enemy tank is, the AI will only use HE, you cannot select AP. Again, my question is whether this is done deliberately to reduce gamey behavior?

Thing is, a near miss with HE still retains a lot of effectiveness. Shooting AP, an inch is as good as a mile. I think live tankers would be reluctant to waste an AP round by firing at a target they couldn't see. So yes, it would be gamey.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Thing is, a near miss with HE still retains a lot of effectiveness. Shooting AP, an inch is as good as a mile. I think live tankers would be reluctant to waste an AP round by firing at a target they couldn't see. So yes, it would be gamey.

For the most part I think people might be surprised how quickly a tank can relocate itself while popping smoke in reverse. Instead they are picturing the smoke popping, taking a while to spread, and all the while the tank is just sitting there. Then when it's obscured the gunner knows pretty much exactly where the tank is. That situation rarely happens in the game.

The other thing is what tanks should be allowed to "guess"? Realistically it would only be those which already had their sights on the tank in question. All others would not have the information necessary to guess.

The one situation I can see as realistic is a tank is currently engaging another tank which pops smoke. As the smoke obscures the target I could see the gunner firing RIGHT THEN if he happened to have something in the breach. Otherwise I think he'd likely keep the shot ready and wait for the target to show itself. After all, wasting a good AP round on a low probability shot, when 3 seconds later the tank might be completely visible, isn't a really smart thing to do.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

The one situation I can see as realistic is a tank is currently engaging another tank which pops smoke. As the smoke obscures the target I could see the gunner firing RIGHT THEN if he happened to have something in the breach. Otherwise I think he'd likely keep the shot ready and wait for the target to show itself. After all, wasting a good AP round on a low probability shot, when 3 seconds later the tank might be completely visible, isn't a really smart thing to do.

Which brings to my mind's eye the following. Suppose a tank comes under fire while the gun is unloaded. He pops smoke and reverses behind it. The enemy shot whistles harmlessly by. Then once the first tank is loaded, he comes charging out of the smoke and fires his own shot at the enemy tank which is caught in the middle of the reloading process. In short, a good reason for the enemy not to risk wasting a shot.

Michael

[gunnersman]

The other thing is what tanks should be allowed to "guess"? Realistically it would only be those which already had their sights on the tank in question. All others would not have the information necessary to guess.

Steve

This is exactly the scenario I envision. The gunner has already ranged the target. The gun line is laid. There are plenty of AP shot left. Why the heck not take a shot?

Why not let the Elite or Crack gunners do this?

[user38]

I am not a tank driver (and I don't know if it is the driver or someone else who controls the smoke popper) but if smoke is being popped to avoid enemy fire would not the driver be trained to shift the tank's position as soon as the smoke is popped?

[Claymore]

This is similar to the new thread I started yesterday regarding LOS and range calculations.

I should be more specific.

In the current AAR, Bil's Panzer's are shooting at Capt's Sherman. The Sherman pop smoke and Bil's PIV's lose LOS right away (I assume it's a quick loss of LOS. That seems to be the case in CMSF). In one instance Bil's PIV already has had 3 shots at the Sherman while not knocking it out. The Sherman pops smoke and LOS is lost.

If we were running this in CMx1 the reversing Sherman could easily be reacquired within a second or two but the Axis tank would have no "memory" of his previous misses. The hit probability for the fourth shot would then be the same as the first shot. Has this been changed in CMx2?

Cheers

MRD