Where is the platoon sgt.?

[LongLeftFlank]

All true, but in COIN of course, where there is no "front" this can all break down frequently and everyone picks up a rifle. In my Ramadi scenario where the US forces were completely tapped out, one QRF was led by the Weapons Co Gunny, while an Army mech force escorting ambulances included the Brigade commander and his PSD plus the CSM (who won a Silver Star). In Iraq, US commanders covering huge AOs reorged their Weapons and HQ companies into secondary QRFs and even primary combat forces. A lot of Master Sgts and Gunnys saw heavy combat and some paid the ultimate price.

[gibsonm]

Except of course that CM:SF isn't meant to cover COIN (although every man and his dog tries to use it for just that).

Time and again Steve has said that the design concept is for the conventional warfighting OPs before COIN starts.

So no big suprise if it doesn't do COIN that well.

[LongLeftFlank]

Don't get defensive, I fully understand all that and have said so myself several times. I didn't opine it ought to be included (I have far more important stuff on my pipe dream list).

And I am about the last guy on this board who will claim CMSF doesn't do COIN well, intentional or not! I have proved the contrary I think.

[gibsonm]

Oh sorry didn't take it that way so if I sounded defensive it wasn't meant to be.

[Vinnart]

Since the Plt Sgt. is missing we must assume he gets to stay back at the Co. CP to get some beauty rest, order MRE's, and drink coffee while everyone else goes on the operatrion. I can't believe that a PFC takes over if the 2nd Lt. platoon leader is out of commission in reality. Who takes over the platoon if not another officer? The PLATOON SGT. must. Why? Because he is now senoir ranking person in platoon. Do you think the captain will get on the radio, and ask to speak to PFC whatshisname. No. He will ask for now senoir ranking man, that being the platoon sgt. True, the platoon sgt. has admin duties, but that still does not mean he doesn't have a combat role, and doesn't fire his weapon.

For the answers we must alway look to the movies

Memorable REAL senior NCO's from the movies who look like they saw plenty of combat.

"Band of Brothers":

1 Sgt. Carwood Lipton (Realy ran the company during the battle of the bulge.)

Platoon Sgt's: Bill Garnuere, Floyd Talbert, John Martin.

Sgt Barnes from "Platoon" (based on Oliver Stone's real Plt. Sgt., hit 7 times)

Weapons Plt. Sgt. John Bassilone (my gumba from 'The Pacific")

Sgt. Rock (oh well no movie about him, but I am sure glad i kept those comic books now worth $2,500)

Just to name a few. Hey, atleast I'm not asking where the S1 - S4 are

[Magpie_Oz]

Things is that the type of operation doesn't really effect the organisation of a platoon. COIN or "conventional" the platoon sergeant is still going to be mainly concerned with tasks that will take him away from the Pl HQ element.

The big thing with CMSF is that all units start as full strength as per TO & E and so the platoons lead by sergeants a la' Band of Brothers do not really figure in the scenarios.

We are also talking the Platoon Sergeant not sergeants who are in the platoon. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that in many cases American squads are lead by Sergeants ? Consequently there are more ppl of sergeant rank engaged in the fighting, Mr Rock for example.

The other thing is that yes the PlSgt will take over the platoon if the Lt is incapacitated but the thing is it will take an appreciable amount of time for that to happen. In the meantime now that I think of it the Pl Sig could step in to the role as he is the one in contact with the higher command until the Sergeant can take over, something that may not actually occur within the game time frames.

[13]

"The other thing is that yes the PlSgt will take over the platoon if the Lt is incapacitated but the thing is it will take an appreciable amount of time for that to happen. In the meantime now that I think of it the Pl Sig could step in to the role as he is the one in contact with the higher command until the Sergeant can take over, something that may not actually occur within the game time frames."

Hell no. Even in the OpOrd succession of command is clearly defined. If the LT goes down, it IMMEDIATELY falls upon the next ranking man. Is it realistic that it may take a few minutes, yes. And sometimes, in order to maintain that initiative, an e-6 may jump the gun and take command for a brief period. But, will it take say 15 minutes to 4 hours? Ha, no way. If a e-3 is calling the shots, he better be crying broken arrow over the headset.

"We are also talking the Platoon Sergeant not sergeants who are in the platoon. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that in many cases American squads are lead by Sergeants ? Consequently there are more ppl of sergeant rank engaged in the fighting, Mr Rock for example."

Standard US Army squads are run by Staff Sergeants. In the infantry, it goes a little like this: Buddy team, 2 guys; fireteam, 4 guys, lead by Sergeant; squad, 2 fireteams, led by Staff Sergeant; Platoon, 4 squads led by 2LT.

Now it varies, at times. Example; my last deployment we had no 2LT, so the platoon sgt. stepped up and filled the LT's role, and one of the squad leaders became our platoon sgt. A lot of times you have specialists in a fireteam leader role, sergeants in squad leader roles, etc., an old rule of thumb was always know 2 jobs above your pay grade.

But, I digress. A platoon sergeant's role can vary wildly, but SH 21-76 defines it as(I will abbreviate as necessary to relevancy to CMSF):PLATOON SERGEANT (PSG)

The PSG is the senior NCO in the patrol and second in succession of command. He helps and advises the patrol

leader, and leads the patrol in the leader's absence. He supervises the patrol's administration, logistics, and

maintenance, and he prepares and issues paragraph 4 of the patrol OPORD.

DUTIES

• Organizes and controls the patrol CP IAW the unit SOP, patrol leader’s guidance, and METT-TC factors.

• Supervises task-organized elements of patrol:

— Quartering parties.

— Security forces during withdrawals.

— Support elements during raids or attacks.

— Security patrols during night attacks.

• Ensures that the patrol adheres to the platoon leader’s time schedule.

ACTIONS DURING MOVEMENT AND HALTS

• Takes actions necessary to facilitate movement.

• Supervises rear security during movement.

• Knows unit location.

• Performs additional tasks as required by the patrol leader and assists in every way possible. Focuses on security and

control of patrol.

ACTIONS ON THE OBJECTIVE AREA

• Supervises, establishes, and maintains security at the ORP.

• Assists the patrol leader in control and security.

• Performs additional tasks assigned by the patrol leader and reports status to platoon leader.

ACTIONS IN THE PATROL BASE

• Assigns sectors of fire.

› Ensures crew-served weapons have interlocking sectors of fire.

• Performs additional tasks assigned by the patrol leader and assists him in every way possible.

Ok. This is waaay too long. But, there ya go.

[13]

Ok, that last one was hard to read. I'll try and explain a little clearer with an example.

Your platoon is tasked with a raid on an objective. So, you divide your forces up into the assault element, and the cordon element. Your LT is supposed to be in the thick of it, so he can develop the situation more effectively. Therefore, he is physically leading the assault element. IOT maintain control of both elements, the platoon sergeant will physically lead the cordon.

Blah blah blah, in order for it to be represented in CMSF, I believe you would need to separate the HQ element into two. Which is very unlikely to happen.

Just pretend when the LT goes down, and it shows a PFC in charge, that the senior squad leader took control. And also pretend he's an SFC.

Lot of words to just say that.

[Magpie_Oz]

Which is pretty much what I said.

If the LT is incap then the PlSgt will take over but he will be in a position that is different to the HQ element, i.e. he will not magically teleport there but will take an amount of time to assume command and could be in any one of a number of places where the HQ element isn't.

In the intervening period the connection to the platoon will be maintained via the PlSig which is what we see in the game, as the game does not model the succession of command it really can't go much beyond that.

[LongLeftFlank]

Another data point FWIW (I have no personal experience to offer although the topic is interesting): Donovan Campbell notes in his (excellent) Iraq USMC memoir, JOKER ONE, that his (unnamed) platoon sergeant was pretty useless; he was very senior and a skilled target shooter but had little leadership, motivation or initiative. He did deploy with the platoon on a number of missions (this is a COIN deployment, keep in mind), but Campbell left him in charge of one of the other squads, keeping his first sergeant effectively as his 2IC.

[vincere]

Another data point FWIW (I have no personal experience to offer although the topic is interesting): Donovan Campbell notes in his (excellent) Iraq USMC memoir, JOKER ONE, that his (unnamed) platoon sergeant was pretty useless; he was very senior and a skilled target shooter but had little leadership, motivation or initiative. He did deploy with the platoon on a number of missions (this is a COIN deployment, keep in mind), but Campbell left him in charge of one of the other squads, keeping his first sergeant effectively as his 2IC.

Combat Admin guys being dangerously useless, self serving etc- well 'Black Hearts' is a darn good read with plenty of that in. Quit unique in what it analyses.

[Vinnart]

All the for real "he is just an admin guy" aside it was cool to see "Top" show his face for the first time since I have been playing, and which led to the question of this thread. I found myself rooting for the 1SG to not get killed. I guess you could say I became more interested in the "character" of the game. What I found particularly interesting was that he tired more quickly than his younger counterparts reflecting a man in his mid 30’s to 40’s rather than a 19yr old. Just as it was cool to see the 1SG make an appearance, so it would be cool to see a Platoon SGT., and a Sgt. Major if the battalion XO gets hit. Just makes things more interesting, and still think these are key figures in HQ sections that honesly makes more realistic sense vs PFC Jerk Off taking over HQ. Every squad/section realisticly has a second in command. If the infantry squads shows a SGT. taking over when the SSGT. dies then the platoon HQ section should get his second in command too that being a SFC. If the community took a vote: Would you rather see PFC Jerk Off taking over Platoon HQ's, OR the platoon SGT. First class? Which would you choose? PLATOON SGT. is much more cooler to see.

[Magpie_Oz]

I cannot imagine a situation where the RSM would end up in command of a battalion. After CO, 2IC, XO, OpsO, IntO, RSO, and the raft of other officers at BHQ, one of the Coy OC's would be well before the RSM.

I guess the important thing to consider is what actually happens when the Pl Comd is out of action. Does the HQ continue to function as a command unit to the subordinates?

[Vinnart]

I cannot imagine a situation where the RSM would end up in command of a battalion. After CO, 2IC, XO, OpsO, IntO, RSO, and the raft of other officers at BHQ, one of the Coy OC's would be well before the RSM.

I guess the important thing to consider is what actually happens when the Pl Comd is out of action. Does the HQ continue to function as a command unit to the subordinates?

Absolutely agree that the likelihood of a Sgt. Major taking over a battalion would never happen with all the spare staff officers around when you get to battalion level. I have been trying to get the battalion XO Major killed to see who the other guy is in the section, but haven’t been able to. Game wise, and reality wise battalion HQ’s usually do not get into the thick of it so the likelihood of seeing this “Character” in the game would be slim to none. I keep battalion HQ’s way back, and usually on hide, or small arc as to not get engaged.

That is a good question. I believe the answer is there is no more command, and C2 since the C2 link goes red when the platoon Lt. gets killed.

[Magpie_Oz]

The quickest way to kill the XO ? Tell the men it was he who cancelled the beer ration, then let nature take its course.