MadWoman Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Exactly my point--DRM like this loses more than it gains. You can buy the following games, all with simple serial DRM: World War One Gold Edition (AgeOD/Matrix) The Guns of August (Matrix) Commander: The Great War (Slitherine/Matrix) or you can put up with this DRM and buy SC: The Great War. I've downloaded and tried the demo. Looks like a promising game. Has some features the others don't. Is it better enough to put up with this draconian DRM? No, it's not, so sorry. As the above poster said, the only people this DRM inconveniences are paying customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestre Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Exactly my point--DRM like this loses more than it gains. I've downloaded and tried the demo. Looks like a promising game. Has some features the others don't. Is it better enough to put up with this draconian DRM? No, it's not, so sorry. As the above poster said, the only people this DRM inconveniences are paying customers. Guess its all in the eyes of the beholder, to me Steam is Draconian not a game that allows 5 downloads a year without putting crap on your computer like Steam does. Why in the world would anyone need more than 5 dl's a year, and even then they can still petition and get another one if needed.... I have heard so many horror stories about Steam and will never purchase a game that uses that kind of DRM... Which is why I have Civ I-IV but not V and have not purchased TW-Napoleon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krista Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 It's good that new systems are tried. They must protect their product in some way to have money to make new games. If you REALLY want something, if it's really important for you, then you buy it even if it has problems. It's not too nice to someone thinking and working daily on a game and then get crap. All systems aren't good for everyone and no system is perfect! Krista Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worg64 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I read this and thought I would put my view in as well on this matter. You will have to excuse my rambling a bit since english is not my main language but I hope youll understand the content of my text. Please read the whole before getting to conclusions First let me say I have bought all the game of SC and it is a great and fun game constantly developing to even better heights. Secondly I dont feel at all Battlefront are treating us as criminals, far from it in fact. The support and service as well as the daily input in forums they provide is very much unheard of by other companies and should be saluted and given a great applause! I really hope you keep this fantastic work up towards your customers. You are doing a great job so far, keep it up! However that said Battlefront is protecting their game in a way that many people myself included feel are not 100% right. Why is that? Well because as it is now when we buy a product from Battlefront we just dont get 100% value of the merchandise we buy. It is like buying a CD with music and not being able to use it whenever you want and lets face it you have bought the merchandise, it is our product in the eye of the customer. That I think is what making people angry and upset because they fell they have the right to use the product as they want because they have bought it fair and square. The difference here something that really must be taken into consideration is that any computer game is not really a physical item, it is a in a way when done as a CD. But all in all it is a computer program existing only in the virtual world. And the problem with that as well with music is that you can freely distribute it to anyone if you have the means or if it is free of any kind of protection. This makes any kind of gaming program a hard issue both for the customer that want his product 100%, being able to do whatever he wants with it and the company that makes them that dont mind their customer get 100% but not want all the customers relatives and friends having it for free, or worse someone selling it further to potential new customers. At the moment their is really no good solution to this problem and that is why so many companys make all kind of strange protection for their games. Most may I say add horrendus pieces of bad programing who only makes their paying customer even more angrier. Like steam or DDi. The worst is the gaming consules that is only existing because the need for the companies to have a secure enviroment for their game. I really despise consuls and it is not because they protect the games for their companies but because they limit the game in so many ways a computer does not as well as preventing us from upgradable patches and mods when they are made. Another bad example of company protection is wizard of the coast recent debacle regarding their DDI downloadable program for their D&D roleplaying game. They decided to withdraw their support for all paying customers own program and instead make a server based tool for all their customers that they had to pay for to use and in the end they lost 43 % of their current paying customer according to recent offical numbers. 43 % !!! All this based on the piracy their product was enduring but they still thought it a good idea that if anything should tell us the huge problem piracy is. Well the problem here is that this ONLY affected the normal good paying customers in a very bad way not the ones that do the piracy. The pirates they crack and gleefull play the game regardless of protection while the paying customers rip their hair out in frustration because of all the much more or less useless protections and that is where we stand today in the gaming industri buisness. But I ramble away my point is as a customer I understand the need for game protection but as a paying customer I dislike and loath anything that lessen my ability to use my bought game as I want. And it is even worse if you have to use additional programs like Steam! The core of the problem is the pirates and the people that use piracies copies not the gaming companies nor the need of game protections! And not untill a good solution toward this has come we as paying customers either will have to endure and help the gaming industries by paying for those game we want to have developed in the future and be subject to this kind of protections regardless of how futile they are. OR we can decide we wont pay for games with protection meaning in the future we maybe wont have the games we want to play available. For me that is a easy choice and the reason I despite my dislike of the games protection buy the game product I want, this to see those games I love to play around not just for now but in the near future as well! So before you get angry at the companies for making protections on their game take a minute to think this over and then I suggest you vent your anger over those that really deserve it the pirates and the companies incompetent security programmers ( And boy are they incompetent! ) then go and buy the games you want to be supported in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Cater Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 So let me get this straight, I only get four installs period even if it's only on one computer??? Just to clarify this is incorrect. You can in fact install as many times on the same computer as you like and doing so only uses one activation, i.e for the first time you install. After that if you reformat your harddrive and would like to reinstall this would use up a second activation. This system gives you 4 activations, meaning you could activate on more than one computer if preferred, plus 1 a year after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 One interesting thing I alyways notice about people having problems with licensing solutions is that they are never able to get the facts straight. Not sure why. I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, mind you, it's just a general observation. I can buy a game from Steam, or Gamersgate, or Impulse, or GoG and download and install it whenever I want, however many times I want. I don't have to scribble down serial numbers or backup installers. I never have to go, hat in hand, to some third-party DRM provider and say "Please sir, can I have another installation?" We do not use a DRM. We use an online activation system. These other companies use DRMs which are based around the idea that you have to check back online with them in order to play. They do all sorts of things in the background while you're playing the game. You may not mind it, other people do (I certainly do). You do not have to scribble down serial numbers. They're either stored in your online account, or printed on your product. You do not have to go to some third-party DRM provider to get an extra activation. You go to our website (www.battlefront.com/activate) for the usual additiona activation within the allowed period, or to our Helpdesk (www.battlefront.com/helpdesk) for exceptions. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Wolfpack, you are highlighting one problem with eLicense yourself when you say "I already can't play any of the previous SC games I've bought because of the licensing issues". Unlicensing is a great concept and it's fairly unique. (Which is why your comment "not being able to unlicense, get that install back for later use seems ridiculous" is completely wrong, because very very few systems out there allow you to do it in the first place) It is one of the reasons why we have been using eLicense in the past, in fact. However, in practical life, we have found that more people forget to unlicense their games than remember it. In the end, the ability to unlicense is meaningless because if you forget to do it, you HAVE to ask our support to reset the key for you. And we can only do this a few times, too, which means that the system, while perhaps flexible in theory, ends up being more limiting than what we have now (an open end "add activation"). It is by default more flexible than not being able to reclaim it at all if you lost an activation due to a hard crash. But in reality, both systems are the same, since we do make exceptions to the rules, and you can always request more than the system allows. Having said that, there is no reason why you "can't play any of the previous SC games I've bought because of the licensing issues". Go to www.battlefront.com/helpdesk and click on Submit Ticket, explain what the problem is, and we may be able to reset your key(s) for you. We do it all the time for people, and that is the whole point... now people can do it themselves, AND get more flexibility early on. Neither system has a hard limit of activations, and both enforce our EULA (End User License Agreement) that are part of your purchase equally well. Good to know. When I tried to reinstall, the program told me I would have to go through e-license to do so. I've dealt with them before and had no end of problems, so I will be sending in a ticket when I get home tonight. I don't have a huge issue with the whole thing, but I can sympathize with those who do. It's definitely not as bad as Ubisoft (Refused to buy SHV which I really wanted because of their system) or Storm Eagle (Same thing with Jutland, even though WWI naval battles are incredibly cool to me), or even Steam, which I despise. I think the main hangup most people have is the whole, "You're not purchasing a game, you're purchasing the right to play the game" idea. Of course, that's been standard EULA stuff for as long as EULAs have been around, but, right or wrong, it's not intuitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I think the main hangup most people have is the whole, "You're not purchasing a game, you're purchasing the right to play the game" idea. Of course, that's been standard EULA stuff for as long as EULAs have been around, but, right or wrong, it's not intuitive. Perhaps it isn't, but like you say, it's not something that we invented, and in fact it's been around for ever. In fact, with DRMs around now for many years, you would think that people would be used to the concept of how software is sold. ALL software, that is (apart perhaps from freeware). The interesting thing is that people seem to be willing to accept truly draconian privacy invading DRMs as long as they don't see them. To me, that's odd. But, well, so be it. But the name calling, fact twisting stuff thrown out by some is really out of place. You'd almost think that some people are specifically out there to badmouth us, even if it means inventing things I can only install the game 4 times on the same PC!!! -> No, you can install the game on 4 PCs, each of which will retain his activated license information until you completely reformat it, or make major rebuilds. I can only install the game 4 times, that's it!! -> No, you can get one additional activation per year every year for your key. Infinitely. I cannot install the game on 500 computers for my LAN party even though I purchased the game! It's mine mine mine -> Right. You cannot. You bought the game to play yourself and perhaps share with a family member. We won't even hold you accountable if you share with a friend. But the whole purpose of licensing software is to pay for the usage. If you want to throw a LAN party, contact us for a multiple license discount. I am changing/reformatting/crashing/destroying my PC every week and I will not be able to install the game on the 52 computers I'll be using this year!!! -> Correct. You are not a typical user and the license activation system is going to cause you problems because if we allowed that, then we would also have to allow the abuse that comes with it (see point above). For this type of customer, buying multiple licenses at a discount would probably be a good option. (actually, you will get one license key, but we'll stock up your activations) And do not be mistaken... licensing sucks. We wish we would not have to use it. It costs us money, resources, time, and energy. But we have to use it because a lot of people out there doesn't give a damn about paying for something that isn't free, or is happy to rip off your game and sell it on ebay for $5 to unsuspecting customers. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fintilgin Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 You'd almost think that some people are specifically out there to badmouth us, even if it means inventing things Er.... yeah.... This speaks volumes. I've said my piece, and nitpicking details or the definition of DRM aside, I stand by it. Gonna go enjoy the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestre Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I cannot install the game on 500 computers for my LAN party even though I purchased the game! It's mine mine mine -> Right. You cannot. I am changing/reformatting/crashing/destroying my PC every week and I will not be able to install the game on the 52 computers I'll be using this year!!! -> Correct. You are not a typical user Martin PRICELESS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck97 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I am changing/reformatting/crashing/destroying my PC every week and I will not be able to install the game on the 52 computers I'll be using this year!!! -> Correct. You are not a typical user I don't think that it's very fair and construtive to go over the top like that. I just tried to make the point that - if you're using two (2 - yeah, that's about 50 less than 52) different systems (not a very uncommon scenario in the age of mobile computing I guess) to play the game - it's not unbelievably unrealistic to spend all four available activations in case you e.g. upgrade to a newer OS or something like that. But if reformatting a slow Windows (which is just a matter of time until you HAVE to do it) or installing a new one makes me an idiot - so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestre Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I don't think that it's very fair and construtive to go over the top like that. I just tried to make the point that - if you're using two (2 - yeah, that's about 50 less than 52) different systems (not a very uncommon scenario in the age of mobile computing I guess) to play the game - it's not unbelievably unrealistic to spend all four available activations in case you e.g. upgrade to a newer OS or something like that. But if reformatting a slow Windows (which is just a matter of time until you HAVE to do it) or installing a new one makes me an idiot - so be it. No it just means you open a ticket and get a new activation in no time!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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