Target Arc and Hide

[jnt62006]

Ran into a situation with my Sniper Team in my last tutorial that got me a little frustrated and then I realized, like most problems, its probably due to human error more than anything else.

Is the Target Arc an automatic fire command? And does it supersede a Hide command?

Can I not give a unit a target arc to focus their observation/spotting and then give them a Hide command to keep them from actually firing?

Or am I stuck with a Facing command followed by Hide and hope they are actually spotting and not just keeping their heads buried in the dirt?

[Erwin]

If you want to focus their attention in a direction but not have them fire, what I do is shorten the "range" of the arc to a few meters. They won't fire at anything out of the range of the arc, but will be focused in that direction.

(I hope it works that way.)

I am curious re the differences between the effect of covered arc in CM2 compared to CM1. I get the impression there is a subtle difference...

In CM1 I thought that using an arc was important ALL THE TIME as it made a big difference to the unit spotting an enemy fast due to attention being focused in the arc's direction.

I read someplace in these forums that in CM2, units spot rather well and fire WITHOUT any arc. So, in CM2 one uses an arc mainly to STOP it firing at things outside the arc (and also to have a unit rotate its turret in a certain direction).

Anyone have a definitive answer?

[vincere]

If you want to focus their attention in a direction but not have them fire, what I do is shorten the "range" of the arc to a few meters. They won't fire at anything out of the range of the arc, but will be focused in that direction.

(I hope it works that way.)

That's exactly what I thought; but has a sqad Jav a tank way past the arc.

Worked well in this case but could easliy not be so good next time.

[DaveDash]

Units spot WAY better with an arc. Especially vehicles. Hide and Arc is basically 'ambush'.

I'm not sure if giving a shorter arc increases spotting in that general direction or not.

[Lanzfeld]

Units spot WAY better with an arc. Especially vehicles. Hide and Arc is basically 'ambush'.

I'm not sure if giving a shorter arc increases spotting in that general direction or not.

Your opinion or fact?

I am not trying to calling you out here but I would love to see some testing or proof. I have played both with and without arcs but I cant say that I have seen a definite bonus in spotting. Kinda hard to tell if you are getting one.

Arcs have been lending themselves to questions for awhile now with no real answers. Is there a spotting bonus or are they just for ambushing and/or turret facing? Is the bonus something that BFC can quantify? Like a 10% higher chance of spotting? If there is a spotting bonus is it ONLY in the arc itself or is it in the direction of the arc all the way out to the limit of visibility?

I would love some answers here.

Lets face it, setting arcs is a pain and it looks like crap. Is it worth it for every unit or is it just for ambush/ turret facing?

[DaveDash]

Your opinion or fact?

I am not trying to calling you out here but I would love to see some testing or proof. I have played both with and without arcs but I cant say that I have seen a definite bonus in spotting. Kinda hard to tell if you are getting one.

Arcs have been lending themselves to questions for awhile now with no real answers. Is there a spotting bonus or are they just for ambushing and/or turret facing? Is the bonus something that BFC can quantify? Like a 10% higher chance of spotting? If there is a spotting bonus is it ONLY in the arc itself or is it in the direction of the arc all the way out to the limit of visibility?

I would love some answers here.

Lets face it, setting arcs is a pain and it looks like crap. Is it worth it for every unit or is it just for ambush/ turret facing?

I don't have any access to the code so I cannot state facts.

However I have noticed an observable difference in units spotting ability with, and without arcs. This difference is even more pronounced with vehicles. Not only that, with vehicles setting arcs in the right direction can decrease turret traversal time and warrant quicker responses. To give you an example, I have witnesses numerous times a ? contact turning into an identified contact immediately after setting a covered arc over the contact.

My personal observation are that Arcs work a lot better with smaller units and vehicles. My theory on this is that spotting is based on number of eyes, so a 13 man Marine squad for example has a lot of spotting potential and can maintain 360 degree SA much easier, whereas a three man vehicle crew would find it difficult to maintain 360 SA, especially with blind spots in the turret, but would fare a lot better spotting in one small direction.

I'm sure it would be easy to set up some tests. Put various units (Squads, Tanks, Sniper) on a map and set up arcs to see if they spot enemies more reliably with, or without.

Regarding your last point, I am not sure about whether the direction matters or the arc itself.

[Erwin]

Ok, so the summary answer to all of the above is "nobody knows(?)"

[dan/california]

Well vehicle turrets point towards the center of a target arc, so their optics would too. I am going to go out on a limb and guess that that does improve spotting more than a little. Infantry is much less clear in this regard, even things like sniper teams.

[DaveDash]

Ok, so the summary answer to all of the above is "nobody knows(?)"

In one of the videos in my recent AAR, my CAAT teams couldn't see some tanks about ~1000 metres in the distance, until I gave them smaller covered arcs, then they spotted them immediately.

They definitely work for vehicles.

[Erwin]

Ok, Dave, that is at least some evidence, as opposed to Dan's "guess."

It is VERY dangerous to assume that anything in CMSF functions like "common sense." (It will get you killed fast.) That's why I like to ask for a "definitive" answer.

Just because the vehicle's optics points towards a target does NOT mean that the GAME takes that into account (until someone proves that it does).

I just know that someone somewhere has done these tests. I hope that Dave's findings are accurate. If so, it contradicts what someone at BF said (I think) that units spot just fine without covered arcs, and that arcs are best used when one wants to "restrict" a unit from firing in certain directions/ranges.

AFAIK this comment would indicate that CMSF is different from CM1, where covered arcs definitely improved spotting.

[DaveDash]

I just ran some tests, which were inconclusive.

What I did discover though, is that a Syrian reserve infantry squad in trees has no problem taking out a sniper team (in the open) from ~300m with AK's. > <

[Erwin]

Ach... snipers... don't get me started...

<breathe deeply 10 times and repeat after me "This is just a game, this is just a game..."

[Hairy Pie]

I've seen no advantage to spotting using covered arcs. I've had troops picking up a fixed T55 about 800 metres across a valley, and a Challenger in the same line of troops not being able to spot the T55 for nearly five minutes, despite having line of sight to it, all the fancy optics and a cover arc!!!!

[JuanValdez]

The reason I'm reading this thread is due to frustration on this issue. I haven't done any organized tests but my experience is that different units act differently. Presumably must be something in the coded behavior of each individual unit. For example, from my experience:

- If assigning a very short cover arc, snipers and other small arms infantry will position themselves behind cover and will only engage targets that come within the range of the arc indicated on the map (more or less)

- jav team will take cover facing in direction of the arc but will engage any vehicle within LOS.

- Abrams tank will honor the range of the arc and target aquisition/firing solution delay is greatly reduced.

- Marine LAV will face in direction of arc but are "dumb as a post" and even in static ambush position never get off a shot before a mobile Syrian T-72 wastes them.

Bottom line, it appears that different units are not coded consistently regarding how they behave for the various commands.

[abneo3sierra]

Well, in the manual, it says that covered arcs increase spotting ability, and that units will mostly adhere to the range and arc limitations, but will break those limitations to counter a serious perceived threat..ie. if you have a T-72 pop up outside of your firing arc of an Abrams, the M-1 is likely to fire on the T-72 regardless of firing arc, as the T-72 is a threat to possibly destroy it, where if a rifle team pops out somewhere outside of its firing arc, it will not bother with them. This is how I understand the manual, at least,and seems to mostly be the case in my own experience. As for spotting benefit, I have seen with my own eyes where (in the NATO game) a German Weasel TOW vehicle, could not see an enemy that panzergrenadiers only a few meters away could see,but as soon as I gave it a firing arc, it saw the Syrian AFV and engaged it.

[Erwin]

Thanks for the info Juan. Useful.

[FuseD]

Does having a larger arc reduce the effectiveness of spotting compared to a smaller arc?