I Love NATO!

[Paper Tiger]

bodkin

have you played this mission yet? There are SO many ways to approach it, it's silly.

[DaveDash]

0 saves and reloads.

I lost 8 KIA 11 WIA the previous mission. I've learnt my lessions.

This mission, there are plenty of options. I ended up using the LAV's from my reinforcements to ferry troops from Waltoo to the main front, and ended up winning with 40 minutes on the clock. This mission, if any, was flexible, with plenty of time, but still difficult.

[Erwin]

Impressive, Dave.

Was that also Real Time, or WEGO?

[DaveDash]

Impressive, Dave.

Was that also Real Time, or WEGO?

RT. Took me about 2-3 hours to complete the mission due to pausing and planning though.

[Erwin]

After playing RT in the very early days, I now exclusively play WEGO as I want to see what's going on all over the place. However, it takes me a long time to complete a scenario as I have to plan and plot for one minute turns every time.

But, I still remember in RT how I would get focused on one little battle only to later find disaster elsewhere. (So, maybe it's an ADD issue, heh?)

And also, if you have to keep pausing every few secs to adjust am surprised it doesn't take you guys longer to play a scenario.

Just curious: You think it's tougher to play RT or WEGO?

[DaveDash]

After playing RT in the very early days, I now exclusively play WEGO as I want to see what's going on all over the place. However, it takes me a long time to complete a scenario as I have to plan and plot for one minute turns every time.

But, I still remember in RT how I would get focused on one little battle only to later find disaster elsewhere. (So, maybe it's an ADD issue, heh?)

And also, if you have to keep pausing every few secs to adjust am surprised it doesn't take you guys longer to play a scenario.

Just curious: You think it's tougher to play RT or WEGO?

I started on WEGO and moved to RT.

In RT, I tend to mass my forces and work one platoon/element at a time. Generally speaking I will move one element into a supporting position, and usually they stay there. Then I bound the other two elements over or around each other and attack that way.

If you are in a situation where you are forced to manage separate forces, RT becomes a headache. Also the USMC Campaign Mission "Milk Run" where you are under -constant- attack from Artillery is not ideal.

For managing large masses of troops (Company+), WEGO is easier on the macro scale, but RT is still superior on the micro scale, especially with vehicle management. Managing small forces RT is superior. I think WEGO, for me, is tougher. I tend to sustain more casualties in WEGO. To give you an example, in RT, as SOON as you hear that ATGM fire you can order all your vehicles to hose the area down with HE. WEGO your stuck there watching your tank drive obliviously into an ambush.

[bodkin]

bodkin

have you played this mission yet? There are SO many ways to approach it, it's silly.

Sorry, I'm just frustratingly stuck on that 'Red Barricades' mission, I've already taken too many casualties, and can't see any way forward, there are even IED's outside doorways! I don't like to call cease fires when losing because I feel I'm not really playing the game but if I continue it's going to be a bloodbath.

Update: I'm now using the full firepower of my mortars to cut a swathe through the town ahead of my advance, things are looking a bit better now.

[Apache]

I'm just kicking off with the NATO German campaign and it is interesting to say the least. Taking me a long time to get to grips with ATGM hunting!! I will NEVER bother about panzerfausts in CM Normandy this much I'm sure.

Having some mixed views on mission execution. I tend to split the force into a platoon per objective leapfrogging the Marders in two's with tanks providing overwatch to the whole battlefield once main ATGM threats have been harried enough. I am tempted to pump 2 or even three platoons to one objective, swamp it and move on on the basis that 4 Marders in overwatch is better than 2!! Not always going to be possible.

ATGMs are a real headache though. Where I can I tend to get as many infantry eyes on the battlefield with teams, leaders, spotters, even drivers, before doing very short shoot/scoot with the tanks in the hope of drawing fire and seeing where it/they come from so I can then call in arty. I don't like to waste too much arty on 'guess' missions.

In closer urban areas it's slightly harder. I prefer to have the German 6 man squads well supported by Marders, they die really easy on their own. BUT the Marders need to be safe from ATGM threats and assaulting the buildings they may be in with infantry is dodgy without Marder support. All makes for interesting play!!! Great module though. It will do until CM:Normandy comes out that's for sure. I have yet to play the Canadian, Dutch or even Stryker campaigns so plenty to get along with. Figure if I can hack it with Germans and their 6 man squads I should find the others more forgiving. Playing on Elite at moment.

[DaveDash]

The front armour on a Leo 2A6 has a great inbuilt ATGM detection system.

With the 'Guess' missions, some maps its blatantly obvious where they will be, and if you call them down before the mission starts, and use a single tube (or gun) you don't use too much ammo.

[Erwin]

Apache: Airpower set to LIGHT and PERSONNEL can be sent in over the largest possible area and will locate and fire at any enemy spotted (and they don't do enuff damage to buildings to lose "preservation" points even after many missions).

I see almost all CMSF games as having more or less the same process:

1) Send in eyes to spot ATGM's - ie: Infantry ALWAYS goes in first.

2) Kill ATGM's with air or arty, or missiles.

3) Only then bring up the fearful and vulnerable tanks to blow up the helpless enemy.

With this formula I find one can win 90%+ of all CMSF games first time thru without restarting etc., and 100% of all games if I do restart.

I used to think that Strykers with the 105mm gun were a joke. But, CMSF shows that they are a much more cost-effective solution for a modern battlefield that is deadly for tanks assuming an enemy with access to modern ATGM's. If I were a tanker playing this game, I think I would transfer out (unless my only oppo was third world without modern ATGM's). (Of course it's a game, not an accurate sim, so who knows...?)

[DaveDash]

Apache: Airpower set to LIGHT and PERSONNEL can be sent in over the largest possible area and will locate and fire at any enemy spotted (and they don't do enuff damage to buildings to lose "preservation" points even after many missions).

I see almost all CMSF games as having more or less the same process:

1) Send in eyes to spot ATGM's - ie: Infantry ALWAYS goes in first.

2) Kill ATGM's with air or arty, or missiles.

3) Only then bring up the fearful and vulnerable tanks to blow up the helpless enemy.

With this formula I find one can win 90%+ of all CMSF games first time thru without restarting etc., and 100% of all games if I do restart.

I used to think that Strykers with the 105mm gun were a joke. But, CMSF shows that they are a much more cost-effective solution for a modern battlefield that is deadly for tanks assuming an enemy with access to modern ATGM's. If I were a tanker playing this game, I think I would transfer out (unless my only oppo was third world without modern ATGM's). (Of course it's a game, not an accurate sim, so who knows...?)

Tanks are far more effective at dealing with ATGM's than infantry.

1) ATGM's will not always spot infantry and thus will not fire at them. Infantry will generally not spot a hidden ATGM until it fires.

2) One ATGM will wipe out half a squad.

The frontal armour of most BLUEFOR tanks can withstand ATGM shots, or return fire and destroy most ATGM's (Except AT-14s) before the missile will reach the tank.

Of course it depends, in an urban setting, infantry first on the flanks, tanks down the middle. However, on many of the wide open maps where you have a mechanised force, running your infantry across the open ground is futile when your tanks can shoot and scoot. Some real examples:

1) George MC's 'Hammertime'. Definitely infantry first.

2) USMC Campaign Milk Run. Definitely Tanks first, using bounding overwatch in teams, or hull down positions, can take out all the ATGMs.

You also have to do the math. Up against regular Syrian infantry? OK, they like have 6 ATGM sections that are generally useless against your armour from the front. What about Syrian Airborn? Ok, they will likely have 4 sections, that are much more dangerous. RPG-29s? Stay back 500m+ RPG-7s? Stay back 300m+.

The only weapon I fear with Tanks is the Javelin. That one would make me want to pack up and go home.

When I first started playing, I lost tanks, but that is because I was being stupid with them. Once you master them, they are simply the most effective weapon you have on the battlefield. They can take a lot of punishment, which saves the lives of your boys.

[Apache]

Interesting points, I'll definitely bear in mind the air strike info. Infantry I find to be effective at ATGM spotting only when they are positioned in overwatch positions and then AFVs are used to 'shoot n scoot' to draw ATGM fire. I don't find the infantry that effective at finding them on their own as such, especially in urban settings, where the infantry are just as likely to be ambushed by an MG, or even a squad in ambush, as much as they are likely to find and KO an RPG team. Care also needs to be taken with pushing the Marders up to provide support in such situations as they will also die quickly if the first thing they discover, as they nudge into LOS of one or more objective/target buildings, is an RPG. Had a couple die when trialling this!! I dare say this is where the tanks would be more useful in the urban setting as the RPG is less lethal frontally than a Kornet I suspect.

I do find that my Leos really cannot be risked as ATGM (long range) magnets at all in the initial stages and find that the Kornets are the main problem. Several times, even with 'shoot and scoot', a Leo has been knocked out or immobilised on the first shot. So far I have HAD to put out loads of eyes on the battlefield, well back right at the start of a mission, to have a hope of spotting ATGMs when they fire and even then have to have the tanks only JUST crest a ridge with an immediate reverse. I definitely need to use recon by arty/air more to help disclose enemy positions. I tend to find the tanks are more survivable once the ATGM positions have been suppressed with a minute or so of arty, until then I have found them highly vulnerable, even directly front on, and 99% of the time unable to ID what fired at them. Most times I have had tanks at least immobilised, and often KOd, when placing in overwatch too early, when going too far with their 'shoot and scoot' or pausing too long once forward. I also notice that when i have had a seemingly poor ATGM firing at my Leo(s), the rounds hitting the dirt quite a way in front, the targeting systems on the tanks have degraded very quickly (checking the 'damage' tab) so even missed ATGM shots are doing more damage than it's worth risking the MBT for. A blind tank is useless. Maybe Abrams and Challengers are more survivable?

Often with shoot and scoot, especially when the target is enemy tanks etc., I use 'Hunt, Pause, Reverse' to allow time to spot as they roll forward, acquire and kill. With ATGMs I think maybe 'Quick or Fast, Pause (5-10 secs max, if indeed any pause at all) and Reverse' may be better figuring that the 'Hunt' forward is useless for ATGM spotting as, unlike a tank target, there is nothing to see as they creep forward and that 'crawl' gives an ATGM gunner a longer time to aim.

I suspect with RPGs the Leos may be more survivable and I might need to start pushing 2 of the 4 forward (up until now I have kept all tanks right at the rear in overwatch but along with the coy cdr and 2 ic in Marders there comes a point where they fail to spot/shoot at much) to support infantry assaults on some urban objectives to help prevent the Marders getting killed by RPGs, thus allowing them to then nudge forward more safely to support an infantry assault with suppression where the infantry would otherwise be dying if they assaulted without them in most cases.

I do find that the enemy tend to be HIGHLY accurate with a lot of their AT weapons, even against a jeep going full tilt down a road!!

On a completely different note, one thing I have found that if a JTAC air observer is provided (thus far I have had them only in jeeps) they are MUCH better able to perform that role if they are placed in the coy cdr or 2ic Marder (presumably because of access to the vehicle comms) than they do on foot with binos. The jeep only has a radio. This way I found the JTAC call times reduce by 1 minute plus across all assets.

Again, on a different note, the Marders are armed with Milans but I have yet to see one fire at anything, much less kill anything with one!! I am (largely) keeping them unbuttoned as the manual says to allow the cdr to use them but they are dormant. Early days yet I suppose as it's only the first mission but, in the demo, I had more kills (MG nests on towers) with foot Milan crews than I did with those that were Marder based.

The lethality of modern weapons for me make CMSF a less interesting tactical game than CMBO in all honesty, or the eagerly awaited Normandy. As Erwin says it does seem to be a very similar recipe for each mission. I suppose the recipe was the same for the Normandy/WWII setting but the reduced lethality seems to allow you to use a greater range of ingredients. There is an awful lot of 'watch and wait' which I actually don't mind for a change but I'm not sure it would keep the interest long term as much as CMBO did. I do miss CM games though (and CMBO is a bit dated now compared to CMX2) and NATO appealed, at least as a stop gap. It also helps to get me fully familiar with CMX2 commands. I definitely look forward to returning to the WWII setting though, especially with the current game engine.

[Apache]

Following more play today I find that infantry are mainly useful for losing me points Tending to try to keep 100% alive I find not using them in combat the most effective option and especially NOT from rooftops. Spotting from outside small arms and MG range with armour threats out the game OR sat in their Marders seems to be the safest two places.

This I suspect is entirely reasonable with the armour/IFVs needing to be used for probably 95% of a lot of tasks. I found putting infantry into suppressed buildings very dodgy also if there were infantry in a building opposite. I now tend to use them for going into buildings which tend to be level with my armour/IFV front line, just to make 100% sure there is no-one in them, not to clear them by combat.

[Lethaface]

I use infantry for the bulk of the tasks, with vehicles in support. When vehicles go first, it is usually EOL for them. Of course this can change if the situation demands it (no or too little inf available, long distances, etc).

For spotting high buildings are key IMO, but it's good not to open fire from them in hostile terrain (lot of enemy positions being able to fire on the building).

My basic strategy is to find good spotting positions for recce/infantry, move some vehicles/heavy weapons to hull down support positions, assault with remaining infantry with vehicles in close support. Depending on ROE, I try to bomb the **** out of the enemy before presenting myself as a target.

Not really tried the German missions yet but currently playing the second mission in the Dutch campaign. Didn't have real problems until now, during the first mission the Apache's took down some ATGM's, Fenneks helping to spot them after they missed (sometimes only after several times). Got a couple of ATGM hits on a Leo, 1 immobilized. Those weren't Kornets though.

*************SPOILER************

Taking the last two objectives in this second mission of the Dutch campaign learned me hard some lessons. RPG29 toting uncons can fatal kill a CV9035 quite effectively from 400/500 meters.. And that was after a 155 barrage near his position.

After taking the water plant (first objective), I'm feeling sorry that I didn't move over the left flank before (around the marshes). With only 2 platoons of infantry I thought I would be too thinly stretched, so I took all my forces to the second objective, apart from some Gill's in overwatch on the flank.

Now I have to attack a well defended town over open field. Even with 4 Leo's, 4 YPR PRI's, 6 CV9035's and 4 Fenneks in support this is proving to be costly. To hell with preserving the town, i'm gonna level it and occupy the ashes.

[DaveDash]

Following more play today I find that infantry are mainly useful for losing me points Tending to try to keep 100% alive I find not using them in combat the most effective option and especially NOT from rooftops. Spotting from outside small arms and MG range with armour threats out the game OR sat in their Marders seems to be the safest two places.

This I suspect is entirely reasonable with the armour/IFVs needing to be used for probably 95% of a lot of tasks. I found putting infantry into suppressed buildings very dodgy also if there were infantry in a building opposite. I now tend to use them for going into buildings which tend to be level with my armour/IFV front line, just to make 100% sure there is no-one in them, not to clear them by combat.

Never put your guys on rooftops unless you know for damn sure you're gonna get fire superiority, and even then I still wouldnt.

The key to keeping your infantry alive is to just play slow and cautious. Don't worry about the time limit, in most scenarios I've played in NATO thus far the enemy surrenders before I run out of time. You lose too many points for casualties.

The next bit of advice is make sure you load up with plenty of ammo and suppress the hell out of everything before you move. If your infantry are advancing ANYWHERE without fire support they will die, and since you can't support them appropriately with vehicles due to RPG and ATGM threats all the time, it's up to them to do it.

The key I've discovered, thanks to some very useful tips from the real life guys who do this in the tactics forum, is to have your supporting elements 90 degrees to where you are assaulting. That way, they can fire at those pesky buildings behind where your assaulting troops are moving towards. This way you wont be surprised by those guys in the room behind where your men run into.

Also, split your squads, that way the supporting fireteam won't get suppressed (a bug with the Assault command) and can do its job. This obviously doesnt work well with the German mech infantry and their 6 man sections.

The NATO missions I find are like one of those puzzle games where you start in a maze, and have to push the squares around in the right order to find your way out. You know those games Im talking about right? You really need to approach the map like that kind of puzzle, looking at all the doors of all the buildings and moving your entire dismounts around in a particular order that guarantees you the most cover and suppression. Identify which building in which block is the key terrain, and then think 'Ok, I need to move this section to cover my assault, but in order to get that section there, I need to move this other section here.. ' and so forth. Also don't forget if you have to cross a firing lane, artillery, smoke, and smoke grenades are your friend.

I will post a screenshot soon of one of Paper Tigers maps to show you what I mean.

[Paper Tiger]

I will post a screenshot soon of one of Paper Tigers maps to show you what I mean.

If you take a look at the real world locations that these maps represent, you'll find that the building facings are more or less accurate. If there's a 'puzzle' element in the map, blame the Syrian town planners I spent a LOT of time working on each map to get it as close to real as possible including the elevations.

[Erwin]

"The NATO missions I find are like one of those puzzle games where you start in a maze..."

Yes, good comment, Dave.

BTW: Re roofs, I agree re not using them for a firebase unless you are sure of superiority. But, I do like to put HQ's and FO's up in roofs with short arcs so they don't reveal themselves by firing. Their use is to accureately bring down arty, or air primarily on ATGM's and RPG's (so your Panzies can move in and kill enemy inf with HE).

[DaveDash]

I will post a screenshot soon of one of Paper Tigers maps to show you what I mean.

If you take a look at the real world locations that these maps represent, you'll find that the building facings are more or less accurate. If there's a 'puzzle' element in the map, blame the Syrian town planners I spent a LOT of time working on each map to get it as close to real as possible including the elevations.

Haha really? Here I was thinking you were being evil on purpose!

Unfortunately I don't have a save, but there is one particular group of buildings right before the Orchard OBJ (Mission 04), on the right of the road, that really had me pondering for a while how I was going to suppress it.

[Paper Tiger]

[DaveDash]

That's the one.

There are no doors facing the north, and it has good fields of fire to the east and west. The only way to get eyes on that building is to take the building directly east of it, but that exposes you to fire from the right flank.

Things like this are what I mean by a puzzle.

BTW: Re roofs, I agree re not using them for a firebase unless you are sure of superiority. But, I do like to put HQ's and FO's up in roofs with short arcs so they don't reveal themselves by firing. Their use is to accureately bring down arty, or air primarily on ATGM's and RPG's (so your Panzies can move in and kill enemy inf with HE).

Oh yeah of course. HQ units/FOs etc are fine on rooftops, as long as you're not playing a human and it's an OBVIOUS OP. ;)

[Paper Tiger]

Yeah, that one was a tricky one to engage. But there is more than one AI plan in this mission and in one plan, the AI doesn't set up in that building, at least at the start of the mission. They might just sneak a unit in later though

If you have a look at the game map, you'll see that it's pretty much spot on as far as building placement is concerned. Unfortunately, there is no street view for the Tall Tamir area which is a shame and there are precious few photos on the web of this part of the world but it's about as close as you could expect it to be from someone who doesn't get paid to do this sort of thing . You would have to deal with that particular tactical challenge in real life as well.

[DaveDash]

Yeah, that one was a tricky one to engage. But there is more than one AI plan in this mission and in one plan, the AI doesn't set up in that building, at least at the start of the mission. They might just sneak a unit in later though

If you have a look at the game map, you'll see that it's pretty much spot on as far as building placement is concerned. Unfortunately, there is no street view for the Tall Tamir area which is a shame and there are precious few photos on the web of this part of the world but it's about as close as you could expect it to be from someone who doesn't get paid to do this sort of thing . You would have to deal with that particular tactical challenge in real life as well.

Yes, I noticed that, it is quite a good representation!

Also I wasn't sure if the AI was in there or not, but in this particular time it turned out they were. They opened fire on another section that was moving around behind that building to the east, which I had occupied. The section in that building managed to suppress them before they did too much harm (again the importance of covering fires from 90 degrees).

There are plenty of little puzzles like this on your maps, and they all sort of 'merge' together to create one big puzzle you have to work out on the company level.

[Apache]

Good points again Dave. I certainly plan to use rooftops a lot less now, until I have total superiority. The 90% angle for support teams is a good idea and I have actually done this many times but as much by accident than planning I do like to use them early on for JTACs, FOs and HQs for spotting purposes but WAY back early on. I also posted about the improvements I found when I put I put jeep mounted FOs (well JTACs at least) in the 2ic or coy cdr Marder (or I suspect any Marder they will be allowed in) which results in missions coming in 1 minute quicker (I play on Elite to better reflect reality) so prefer to do that when I can and again, where threats to the IFVs have been taken out.

[AkumaSD]

Wow. I'm freaking out at how awesome the Canadian campaign is. The entire NATO module is great.

Quick AAR.

Mission "Hope" in RT on Elite. Total victory with the enemy surrendering. 530 vs. 35

Me- 7 WIA

Enemy- 74 KIA, 48 WIA, 51 Missing.