Difficulty grasping tactics, please help

[Yskonyn]

*warning! LOADS of questions!*

I've been playing CMSF for quite a while now, against the AI and in PBEM games, but I remain having difficulty with tactics assessment in relation to units.

In most video's from Battlefront you see bunched up units in hot action. Often we see IFV's rushing forward right next to infantry.

Is this a common tactic? Should you always keep your IFV's close to your infantry or is it just for 'action shot' purposes in the video's?

I haven't served in the army, so that's probably why some things don't click for me, but as there are heaps of people here on the boards with experience and knowledge about modern warfare I thought I should finally ask properly here.

I do grasp the fact that infantry controls area's by actually being there, while tanks for example often control area's from a distance with only firepower focussed on the particular area.

How should I normally use IFV's? Is it wise to keep the infantry inside the vehicle for as long as possible or should you unload and march forward next to eachother?

Do IFV's form the spearhead to look for contact or is this normally done by infantry (or at least non-vehicle units)?

As you can see my main issue is the 'HOW' of things. That, and the scope of range on a given map. How far is the effective range of a given unit?

I apologise if it all seems a ragtag of questions, but I hope you can make me wiser.

Maybe there are some great documents I can read to get a proper understanding of combined arms warfare?

THANKS!

[MikeyD]

The nice thing about CMSF is you can 'learn by doing'. Nothing like charging over the crest of a hill guns blazing to dissuade you from charging over the crest of a hill like that a second time.

In the real world there's apparently some difficulty with armor accompanying infantry. Everybody and his brother these days is firing discarding sabot rounds (from .50 cal up). This means firing over the heads of your infantry would shower them with sabot jacket pieces. Keeping your armor abreast with the infantry increases the risk of inadvertantly squishing a couple of 'em as you maneuver, or an ERA block being detonated with infantry too-close-for-comfort. Then keeping your armor ahead of infantry risks a close-in RPG kill.

The Germans had similar problems using Tigers as infantry support in WWII Russia. They were 'supposed' to stay well back on overwatch, but nervous infantry seeing the Tigers sitting 300m behind them would tend to fall back to the comfort of their Tiger's shadow. Move the Tiger forward to the troops positions and they'd become a fire magnet. Artillery, AT rifles, anything that could be fired at you.

[Yskonyn]

Yes indeed the game allows you to learn, but its brutally unforgiving, especially in PBEM games!

Maybe I should clarify a situation to show my troubles:

I want to advance to a house. Behind the house there are at least three enemy tanks confirmed on overwatch. There's a line of defense to the left of the house mounting machine gun emplacement and AT equipment.

I can spot the house from a hill towards my side of the map, but the surrounding units cannot be, for some reason. I have a dedicated spotter doing his work, but his yield is not too well.

I tried two probing actions with two IFV's and two infantry squads. Both IFV's were shot by an unknown enemy unit, but the infantry was able to assault the house.

In the end I am wondering what I could have done to keep the two IFV's and that results in me being overly cautious, often riding vehicles up to a ramp, look for 10 secs and then retreat. Rinse and repeat to look for enemy units.

This tactic however, doesn't do anything to push my efforts forward...

Infantry just lies in a bush. They are unable to spot very well on their own, so they become quite useless. IFV's and Tanks only peep over the hills for a short while to look for enemy locations, but spotting like this yields only maginal results.

I quickly find myself in a stalemate position, too affraid to loose units in general, but at the same time loosing units with small time probe actions cause I feel the need to do *something*!

Would a better action be to bunch up a few mixed units and push forward on one specific location? Then reinforce over there and go on?

In my mind this would only work on very large maps, which CMSF has little of...

Frustrating this...

Thanks for the input so far!

[Dietrich]

How should I normally use IFV's? Is it wise to keep the infantry inside the vehicle for as long as possible or should you unload and march forward next to eachother?

Do IFV's form the spearhead to look for contact or is this normally done by infantry (or at least non-vehicle units)?

The closer you are to the enemy, the more risk to the IFV. If there's risk to the IFV, there's risk to the pixeltruppen it's carrying. Better to lose a vehicle by itself than both a vehicle and an entire squad due to an ATGM hit.

How far is the effective range of a given unit?

For crew-served weapons (including RPGs and the like), the weapon system's range is listed in the profile section (which shows a silhouette of the weapon system) of the details panel. The effective range of vehicle weapons is not listed, since vehicles often have more than one weapon and typically those have different effective ranges. Infantry weapon effective ranges are in the realm of 300-500 meters for assault rifles and carbines, 600-800 meters for SAWs and LMGs, and 1000+ meters for sniper rifles.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

It's a big trick to get the enemy to reveal his units without getting slaughtered in return. There's really no easy way to do it.

But your best bet is recon by fire, AKA area fire.

I like machineguns (dismouted or vehicle) for flushing out enemies from long range. You'll either provoke counter fire from a potent weapon worth killing ahead of time or make people at the target area very unhappy.

Infantry that you've gotten as close as you can without breaking cover/concealment should spot most of those units that do return fire. They needn't get stuck in at this point. Watching is enough.

And unlike in CMx1, machineguns are lethal at range and tend to have plenty of ammo, unless playing Red. So hosing down suspected enemy positions tends to be it's own reward.

You get penalized for casualties. Ammo usage... not so much.

[Yskonyn]

So how do you perform 'recon by fire'?

Do you just hose metal at any and all positions you *think* an enemy might be hiding and see what the results are? Do squads really have enough ammo for such tactics? Is it 'gamey' or used in RL as well?

[Jonny(FGM)]

Don't area fire with your squads unless you really have to. 1 They don't have the ammo and 2 it tends to distract them.

Thats what crew served weapons are for : )

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Indeed. Don't use regular rifle armed infantry for this!

Aside from the aforementioned objections they don't have the range. Assault rifle armed troops who do recon by fire can be shot at by practically any enemy unit in the area.

As a last resort only!

It has to be the long range 7.62mm machine guns or better. Up to and including IFV auto cannons. It's pretty much what they are there for. Sadly Red forces don't have spare 7.62 MG ammo for some reason. But pretty much any Blue force should have more then enough on hand.

Tank gun HE rounds are rare enough for you to more cautious with their firing. I'd use the tanks machine guns only, except against practically guaranteed occupied positions.

And then there is artillery. Some preliminary airburst on a suspicious treeline or inconvenient ditch will do wonders. While artillery is rare and precious, it's so effective then even a handful of airbursts can neutralize enemies in large areas. Don't wait to use it till some of your guys are dead!

And it's a quite real tactic, especially against a not very disciplined opponent. In a shooting war, that is.

The objective IRL and in game is to provoke a response from beyond effective range of the enemy, fix the enemy in place, lower morale and possibly inflict casualties. Area firing in this fashion is far from gamey.

[SD Smack]

So how do you perform 'recon by fire'?

Do you just hose metal at any and all positions you *think* an enemy might be hiding and see what the results are? Do squads really have enough ammo for such tactics? Is it 'gamey' or used in RL as well?

Generally the way I do it is look at the terrain and find the places I would hide then hit it with a minute or two of HMG fire. I agree with Jonny, dont use your squads to recon by fire. Use coax, and other vehicle mounted MGs. If you dont have any vehicles us the squad MGs. Just be cognizant of how long you fire as you dont want to waste your squad MG ammo if you dont have to. Personally I like coax and 25mm for knocking on the door to see if anyone is home.

As for real life use, I think it will depend largely on the ROE. If its a true "hot" war then yes shoot first and ask later. If its more of a counter insurgency type mission then you will have to be more disciplined with your fire.

Disclaimer.....this is my totally non-expert advice!

steve-o

[tyrspawn]

The usefulness of IFVs are in the name: "infantry fighting vehicle." Essentially IFVs are supposed to be used as mobile gun platforms, transport and resupply for infantry. They are not armor, and should not be used as such. Rushing your IFVs in an attack is a great way to lose expensive vehicles and entire infantry sections.

one real world military concept you should learn to grasp is maneuver by fire: it is the essential foundation of all modern military tactics. The idea is to have one group called a base of fire which provides "overwatch" while another group, the maneuver element bounds towards, engages and eventually destroys the enemy. The overwatch element provides suppressive fire on the enemy, engages any enemy forces which attempt to interdict the maneuver element, spot for the employment of air and artillery assets and otherwise ensures the maneuvering element survives.

You can use your IFVs to act as a base of fire in overwatch positions, preferably in "hull down" concealment (in which the hull, the most vulnerable part of the vehicle is outside the line of sight of potential enemy positions), as infantry assault. HQ elements can remain with the IFVs and call in fire missions, and a reserve can retrieve javelins from the vehicles to address armored threats (or fortified enemy sniper/HMG teams in buildings) if they appear.

[Yskonyn]

Thank you all for contributing. It's somewhat more clear now.

Would a good simple rule of thumb be to keep the IFV's on overwatch, concealed -or partially at least- in hull down positions and serving as a fire base, while I then use the infantry squad to engage the enemy while they are under supression from the IFV's?

Is there a chance of friendly casualties if I get close to the enemy while my IFV's are still supressing?

What would the scenario be if there's a second line of enemy units behind the objective of the assault? Would you just need more bases of fire to shut them all up before assaulting with the infantry squads?

Normally you won't have spotted all enemy units, so when do you know you're not being overloy cautious OR sending them into the meat grinder?

Another question that popped up: I have a mortar squad sitting at the base of a small hill. On top there is another unit. The icons indicate they are both equipped with radios.

The unit on top of the hill spots enemy position right in front of the small hill at around 500m. Why can't the mortar squad fire? Shouldn't they be able to fire from the directions of the spotting squad on top of the hill, cause of the radio contact?

[Jonny(FGM)]

Mortar squad?

Do you mean the 50mm doodad carried by the brits?

[Yskonyn]

Yeah that's the one. Isn't that a mortar?

[Jonny(FGM)]

yes it is a mortar, technically. in practice it's more like a grenade launcher that fires up instead of forwards.

You can only (in CMSF anyways) use it in a direct fire mode, IE you can't use another unit to spot for it in the way you could in CMx1, i prsume that is what you were asking?

The good thing about the brit mortar is that it can fire just beyond it's LOS however, IE behind a wall or the crest of a hill

[Yskonyn]

OK thanks for the feedback. It was indeed what I was asking.

I presume I was right about the usage of the IFV's in combo with the tin men?

[tyrspawn]

Thank you all for contributing. It's somewhat more clear now.

Would a good simple rule of thumb be to keep the IFV's on overwatch, concealed -or partially at least- in hull down positions and serving as a fire base, while I then use the infantry squad to engage the enemy while they are under supression from the IFV's?

Is there a chance of friendly casualties if I get close to the enemy while my IFV's are still supressing?

What would the scenario be if there's a second line of enemy units behind the objective of the assault? Would you just need more bases of fire to shut them all up before assaulting with the infantry squads?

Normally you won't have spotted all enemy units, so when do you know you're not being overloy cautious OR sending them into the meat grinder?

Another question that popped up: I have a mortar squad sitting at the base of a small hill. On top there is another unit. The icons indicate they are both equipped with radios.

The unit on top of the hill spots enemy position right in front of the small hill at around 500m. Why can't the mortar squad fire? Shouldn't they be able to fire from the directions of the spotting squad on top of the hill, cause of the radio contact?

Yes, IFVs make a good base of fire due to their spotting and suppressive fire abilities - if you are attacking an enemy position suppress it with HMG, AGS or canon fire while the infantry is given an assault (if the enemy is partially suppressed) or movement order (if they are completely suppressed) to close and destroy it.

If theres a line of enemy behind the main line, occupy the ground where the first line was, and then bound the rest of your force forward. Then assault forward again. This is called "bounding overwatch"

Also consider preparatory strikes with arty and/or aircraft.

[Yskonyn]

Thanks tyr, but shouldn't I be worried about the second line of enemies killing off all the members doing the initial assault?

I think I would need enough units to supress that line as well, or are there other options? Assuming of course that the second line has a LOS towards the first line.

[Dietrich]

shouldn't I be worried about the second line of enemies killing off all the members doing the initial assault?

I think I would need enough units to supress that line as well, or are there other options? Assuming of course that the second line has a LOS towards the first line.

If you have artillery/mortars, it would be wise to bombard the 2nd line while your pixeltruppen are assaulting the 1st line. Alternatively, you could drop smoke rounds between the 1st and 2nd lines, isolating them from each other so the troops in the 2nd line can't fire on the 1st line.

[Yskonyn]

If you have artillery/mortars, it would be wise to bombard the 2nd line while your pixeltruppen are assaulting the 1st line. Alternatively, you could drop smoke rounds between the 1st and 2nd lines, isolating them from each other so the troops in the 2nd line can't fire on the 1st line.

Didn't the western forces have IR scopes so they could see through most smoke? How do I know my unit has such a thing?

(see I am getting there! )

[Jonny(FGM)]

I think it's just the vehicles that have such equipment but i may be wrong, i'm not even sure it's modelled in CMSF

[MikeyD]

CMSF models several different generations of IR/thermal imagers. They also model several different types of popped smoke. Some smoke the thermal imagers can see through, some smoke they can't. A T-90 MBT is much more likely to nail you through your popped smoke than a mere T-62. How you know which vehicle does what is another matter entirely. Maybe its in the (rather thin) manual, I haven't looked over the manual for vehicle info for a long time.

[Dietrich]

A vehicle's equipment tab should tell you if it has IR optics. Some vehicles (like the Stryker) have smoke launchers which generate smoke that IR optics can't see through. Artillery/mortar smoke, though, is not IR-blocking.

[Jonny(FGM)]

But what about the vehicles that use non IR blocking smoke that have IR optics? I'm sure whenever i've had a vehicle pop smoke it basically blinds itself.

[Yskonyn]

I guess the vehicles always pop smoke you cannot see through and only smoke caused by rounds (artillery/mortar e.g.) can be seen through?

That's how I understand it anyway.

[Jonny(FGM)]

Hmm well that shouldn't be the case. as far as I'm aware no british vehicles (in game anyway) use IR blocking smoke, and in fact the only vehicle that im aware of that does use IR blocking smoke is the stryker family.

although im more than likely wrong..........