Promenading ones sexuality

[dieseltaylor]

School axes prom for lesbian date

A school board in the US state of Mississippi has cancelled a high school prom after a female student asked to attend with her girlfriend.

The board said it would not host the event due to "distractions to the educational process".

Student Constance McMillen, 18, said the move was in retaliation for her request to bring her girlfriend to the event and wear a tuxedo.

The school had circulated a memo prohibiting same-sex dates.

Ms McMillen approached school officials shortly before the memo was issued.

Ultimatum

According to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), which is backing Ms McMillen's case, the school board told her that she and her partner would not be allowed to arrive at the event together nor would she be allowed to wear a tuxedo, AP reported.

Itawamba County Agricultural High School in Fulton also reserved the right to ask Ms McMillen and her girlfriend to leave if it made any other students feel uncomfortable, the ACLU said.

The ACLU had given the Itawamba County school district until Wednesday to reverse the school's ban on same-sex couples attending proms.

In a statement issued on Wednesday, the board said it hoped that "private citizens will organise an event for the juniors and seniors" instead.

Ms McMillen said cancelling the prom was an act of "retaliation".

"A bunch of kids at school are really going to hate me for this," she told local media.

She also said that when she asked a teacher about the school's ban on same-sex dates at the prom, she was told she had to remember where she was.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/americas/8563122.stm

Rather a sad affair. I suppose private enterprise will fill the gap. The idea that asserting ones own rights creating a possible bigger fall-out is an advanced bit of thinking.

However in a country where notoriety carries bigger rewards than hard work I suppose it is not surprising that people work the angles. My personal view is that homosexuality is not natural - in the sense that the species is designed for procreating itself. Society has therefore a predisposition to think that this is normal. Anything else is abnormal. My personal opinion on lesbians and guys is that they do not bother me particularly other than if they insist on special treatment or push their views beyond what is reasonable.

In this respect they fall into the same class as religious nuts and religions in my [in]tolerance zone.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I've got a hard time telling where you stand on this issue in this specific instance.

Surely this girl isn't "promenading" or "pushing" her sexuality? She wants to go to the prom with her date/love interest, as is the tradition, nay, the whole point of the prom. This love interest happens to be a girl.

Why would a lesbian be forced to drag some guy to the prom? It makes no sense!

she was told she had to remember where she was.

This is an attitude I've seen quite a few southerners give. It's a poor excuse for their various bigotry. It is them that need to remember where they are. Which is... NOT IRAN.

[dieseltaylor]

My stance is that if your behaviour upsets people or creates an unfortunate atmosphere should you modify your behaviour. Being polite and British I think this is the correct course of action. I would not go to the prom, or not go in an overt fashion.

In the US the idea my be that it is the other peoples problems so let them deal with it. Also there are fringe benefits in that I may get a law suit pay-off and/or national media exposure. SO of course I am going to stuff it to them : )

In a society where she would be laible for legal costs to some extent then this course of action may not be so attractive. As it stands she loses nothing and has absolutely everything to gain.

Of course we can expect a rash of these to follow. And after that some will have to think another way of inflicting their guaranteed rights on other groups.

BTW. A couple of other points:

a] the human brain is not completely formed in the teens - in males this can be as late as 21. Earlier in girls.

b] it is innate for humans to feel disturbed by some other humans. Colour is the most common. Behaviour might actually trump that as most people are uncomfortable in the company of visibly demented. Sexual behaviour is another. Men going around with uncovered *****es [very few have more than one BTW] is fairly rare in most societies but exists in others and they would have problems having a ball!

: )

[Sergei]

Lesbians in a prom? What next, mixed race couples? No doubt that would upset some Mississippians!

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Lesbians in a prom? What next, mixed race couples? No doubt that would upset some Mississippians!

Exactly.

For this you get a cookie. I say cookie, I mean a video where boobs and pussies will be show.

Not entirely SFW

[dieseltaylor]

Its easy for us to make comments but if you were having to make the decisions about the High School prom I suspect it would be exceedingly vexing.

If she had turned up on the night it may have been a lot easier alround. However once the put the case to them what could they do. She turns up and there is a fight/abuse etc who is going to get sued. Insufficient security, should have known there would be trouble/ - hell they are on a hiding to nothing.

I imagine that the role of the School Board member will become distinctly unattractive to any normal person now. Of course if you are on Gods mission or have an agenda to force through you are probably not going to have many people to run against.

Incidentally the girlfriend is 15 so it set me wondering whether they have any rules for how young or old partners can be. Would they be offended if she turned up with a 13 year old or a 50 year old? Incidentally actual lesbian behaviour would be criminal with a 15 year old.

[Sergei]

Its easy for us to make comments but if you were having to make the decisions about the High School prom I suspect it would be exceedingly vexing.

What vexing would there be??? How is it a huge problem to let two girls dance together? There's nothing upsetting about that. Why are you making it sound like it is?

[Sergei]

Incidentally actual lesbian behaviour would be criminal with a 15 year old.

Only if you're 36 months or more older. Now why are you so upset about this, again? There are lots of 15-18 year olds dating AND HAVING SEX EWWW everywhere, straight or lesbian alike.

[dieseltaylor]

Sergei - I was mentioning the laws for that state. That people are bonking all over the place and what age they are does not bother me unduly. BTW sergei what do you think the minimum agae should be? Does it matter if there is an age difference?

I have no problem with the dancing. My interest is in the difficulties of administrating. Perhaps if you forsaw violence and you were the sueable party responsible for the smooth and happy running of the event you might see things as more complicated. Please tell me how it should be handled in a backwards party of Mississippi?

[YankeeDog]

My personal view is that homosexuality is not natural - in the sense that the species is designed for procreating itself. Society has therefore a predisposition to think that this is normal. Anything else is abnormal.

You'd be surprised at how many higher animal species display homosexual behavior on a pretty regular basis. It has also been a quite common element of human culture throughout history; far more common than your school history texts would have you believe. Ultimately, I think "abnormal" and "natural" are value judgments, but as far as frequency of occurrence, homosexuality in humans and higher animals is certainly not rare. Survival of a species or culture is far more complex than just successful impregnation, and I think you can make a strong argument that, for some species and some human cultures (though certainly not all), homosexual expression actually serves an important social function that contributes to long-term survival of the whole, rather than detracting from it.

My stance is that if your behaviour upsets people or creates an unfortunate atmosphere should you modify your behaviour. Being polite and British I think this is the correct course of action.

Yeah, sure. Conform to the norm. Don't step out of line. Don't stick your head up above the crowd. Wasn't there a Brit named Orwell who wrote a few words on this theme?

Incidentally actual lesbian behaviour would be criminal with a 15 year old.

In the United States, this depends entirely upon what state you're in. It also depends on what you mean by "Lesbian behavior," which is an ambiguous term, at best. Two women holding hands? Kissing? Fondling? Sleeping in the same bed? Nevertheless, while I am not familiar with the laws in Mississippi, I'm sure that there are laws there which attempt to make "Lesbian Behavior" illegal, just like not many years ago Mississippi had laws that attempted to prevent interracial relationships (some of these laws are still on the books, actually). It is, after all, a very "Red, " "Bible Belt" state. Whether such laws could withstand Constitutional challenge is another matter....

This is not to say that sexual intercourse with a minor couldn't be prosecuted in most jurisdictions -- depending often on the age of the other individual involved, sexual intercourse with a 15-year old would be considered statutory rape in many areas of the United States. But these laws apply equally to any heterosexual couples attending the prom, and in any event there's nothing in these laws that prohibit simply attending the prom with a 15-year old, holding her hand, dancing close, and maybe giving her a smooch. These laws don't come into play until you're in the back seat of a car on Lover's Lane after the prom is over...

We're a polyglot country. Our citizens come from a range of cultural, social, and racial backgrounds far wider than any other country on the globe. We're probably never all going to see eye-to-eye on big social issues like sexual orientation and expression. This is simultaneously our greatest strength and our most perilous weakness.

So, as I see it, we have a choice: We learn to live and let live, allowing others to do as they please so long as it doesn't inconvenience us, and directing our energies towards finding what common ground we have. Or we can interfere every time we see someone doing things in a way that we don't like or agree with, and waste our energy on getting in the way of each others' Pursuit of Happiness.

Cheers,

YD

[YankeeDog]

I have no problem with the dancing. My interest is in the difficulties of administrating. Perhaps if you forsaw violence and you were the sueable party responsible for the smooth and happy running of the event you might see things as more complicated. Please tell me how it should be handled in a backwards party of Mississippi?

Well, how do you see this case as different from an interracial or interfaith couple that wanted to attend a prom? Interracial couples have, in very recent history, instigated violence at events like High School Proms.

To put it another way, is it morally acceptable, and should a school or other entity have the legal right to deny an interracial couple admittance to an event on the basis of the prospect of violence? What about an interfaith couple? A same-sex couple?

Here in the United States, from a legal standpoint, the answer for an Interracial or Interfaith Couple in the vast majority of situations is most definitely "No." Though not long ago, things were very different. The legal answer for same-sex couples is unsettled right now; probably where the answer for interracial couples was 40-50 years ago.

[Gunfreak]

Not supose to talk politics so it's kinda limiting, but as Yankee dog is right, homosexuality is very commen in the wild espesaly in mammals and birds but other groups to, and we aren't just talking sex here, but real "gay marriage" amog animals were they spend most of their life togeather.

Now the evolutionalry reason for this is so far unknown, we simply havn't found a working theory that explanes why it would be benifitial for some same sex bonding.

How does two male swans hooking up togeather help the spread of the genes ect.

At first we thought that the gay animals might help raise thier Nephews and nieces and give them a better chance of survicing, and that way makes their gene spread.

But this didn't pan out, so right now we don't know the reason why some people and animals are gay, we only know that they are, and they arn't hurting anybody. and therefor I have absolutly no problem with it.

[dieseltaylor]

YD

I love the rhetoric but can you give me your position if you were the School Board and you thought there was a high likelihod of discord, and possibly violence at the April prom. What would you do of a practical nature?

Secondly is there an age difference that would be objectionable to you at the prom?

BTW there are approximately 450 animals with homosexual behaviour recorded but that is irrelevant to the above questions. Sergei may yet get around to responding also!

[YankeeDog]

YD

I love the rhetoric but can you give me your position if you were the School Board and you thought there was a high likelihod of discord, and possibly violence at the April prom. What would you do of a practical nature?

Actually, this one is fairly easy as legally I think the precedent set by Brown v. Board of Education allows a School Board only two options: Cancel the event entirely, or move forward and allow the controversial couple (be they same-sex, interracial, or whatever) to attend. In terms of execution, I would probably get legal back up on this (i.e., a written opinion by the School District lawyer), and then call a P.T.A. meeting and explain the situation to parents: Legally, we MUST either (a) cancel the prom, or ( allow everyone to attend, and take whatever steps are necessary to ensure security. I'd probably advocate the latter, but ultimately leave to the parents as they're the ones who would probably be called upon to provide the additional security (at least, that's how it was at my prom oh those many years ago. Parent chaperones everywhere; even in the bathrooms).

Secondly is there an age difference that would be objectionable to you at the prom?

Never really thought about this extensively, but I'd probably say the 36 months rule is reasonable, as this matches the statutory rape laws in many states. That is, many state rape laws are written such that sexual acts with a minor are illegal UNLESS the age difference is 36 months or less. So I'd say a 18 year-old bringing a 15 year-old is acceptable, but an 18 year-old bringing a 14 year-old is not. Inevitably any cut-off like this ends up being somewhat arbitrary as it really has more to do with emotional maturity than age per se. But you have to draw the line somewhere... I don't think anyone wants to see a high school senior bringing a 6th grader to the prom.

BTW there are approximately 450 animals with homosexual behaviour recorded but that is irrelevant to the above questions.

Like I said, quite a few.

[dieseltaylor]

So you would make rules about who could asociate with who and enforce that because you have your own standards on what is a suitable age that you feel you can impose on others? Is this hypocrisy? - I don't suppose there is any law on this at all.

I had visions of a big dyke with leather about 50ish arriving, for that matter it could be a man of your age dancing with an 18 year old and smooching. Do you think that might gross out some students? They really hate to know that wrinklies have sex. I mean would this be a downer for the prom?

[dieseltaylor]

Just as a thought, bestiality occurs in quite a lot of cultures [and is not illegal in some States] does that come under the heading of not inconveniencing others?

So, as I see it, we have a choice: We learn to live and let live, allowing others to do as they please so long as it doesn't inconvenience us, and directing our energies towards finding what common ground we have. Or we can interfere every time we see someone doing things in a way that we don't like or agree with, and waste our energy on getting in the way of each others' Pursuit of Happiness.

YD

BTW good answer with going ahead and using the law/parents to police the do but does not that ruin it for everyone else. Also it does presume that the parents are "safe". Incidentally the 15 year olds parents were not aware - but would not let her have gone. Nice.

[YankeeDog]

So you would make rules about who could asociate with who and enforce that because you have your own standards on what is a suitable age that you feel you can impose on others? Is this hypocrisy? - I don't suppose there is any law on this at all.

I had visions of a big dyke with leather about 50ish arriving, for that matter it could be a man of your age dancing with an 18 year old and smooching. Do you think that might gross out some students? They really hate to know that wrinklies have sex. I mean would this be a downer for the prom?

Sorry if I wasn't clear; the 36 month rule for purposes of the prom, should probably extend northwards as well. So 18 year-old bringing a 21 year-old date, fine. But no 50 year-old dates. Stat. rape laws don't work this way, but for the purposes of an event that is intended to be primarily social event for high-schoolers, I do think you have to draw the line somewhere.

As for the rest, I'm really not sure what your point is. Today, an adult having sexual relations with a child is something that broadly accepted as damaging to the welfare of a child. I think only a very small fringe minority would disagree with this. We can quibble about exactly where the age cut-off for statutory rape should be, but I think 99.5% of adults would agree that there should be one. Other societies at other times in history have seen things differently, but other societies at other times have also seen human slavery and sacrifice as acceptable practices. I will readily admit that there are limits to "live and let live," and that this is ultimately a subjective, consensus evaluation. Society's perception of where these limits lie changes over time.

In contrast to pedophilia, as I see it homosexuality is a behavior actively practiced by a minority (somewhere in the ballpark of 5% in the U.S.), which is seen as deviant and unacceptable by some, but is also seen as acceptable by others. The exact percentages will very depending on where you are in the country, and how you frame the question, but I do believe that we have reached the point in this country where a high enough proportion of U.S. citizens see homosexual behavior as something that should be tolerated (if not necessarily applauded), that it falls in the category of those things we should learn to accept about our neighbors, rather than prosecute. I will readily admit that this is a subjective evaluation on my part. But since acceptance of homosexuality is rising rapidly in our country, especially amongst those under 40 (and yes, this trend extends even to the "Red" states), I think time is on my side. Basically, if you don't agree with me, your son or daughter probably will once they get old enough to vote. So it's pretty clear where were headed.

[YankeeDog]

Just as a thought, bestiality occurs in quite a lot of cultures [and is not illegal in some States] does that come under the heading of not inconveniencing others?

Actually, personally I don't care of you f*ck a duck. The only reason I see why making this kind of behavior illegal is a good idea is that I'm anti-animal cruelty. Public health is a secondary issue, but is less of an issue today than it once was. But as a personal behavior, I don't care.

BTW good answer with going ahead and using the law/parents to police the do but does not that ruin it for everyone else. Also it does presume that the parents are "safe". Incidentally the 15 year olds parents were not aware - but would not let her have gone. Nice.

The question of the rights of the parents of the 15 year-old gets into a whole different area of the law. The brief answer is that yes, they do have the right to prevent a minor under their care from attending. I question the wisdom of this kind of parenting (I suspect their child is going to turn 18, leave the house, and they're never going to hear from her again). But that's a different topic.

In regards to the School Boards hypothetical, like I said, I would definitely advocate for the prom to go forward. It's not like it would be the first time that heightened security had to be put in place to ensure basic civil rights in the high schools of this country. Heck, M1-toting U.S. Army soldiers were called in to escort black students on their walk to school every day in Little Rock. I can't even imagine what the security looked like at the first integrated proms in the South. Tanks?

But ultimately, School Boards don't throw proms. PTAs and School Prom Committees do. So if I as a school board chairman can't convince enough of the PTA members to pull together and organize a safe prom that everyone can attend, then there can't be a prom. Those are the only two legal options available, and safety has to come first. I'd encourage the parents and town at large to take the high road, but ultimately I can't lead where they won't follow.

[costard]

Diesel, I think you've highlighted one of the truisms of humans - we have difficulty distancing ourselves from the emotional effect of the subject at hand in an attempt to discuss the subject (and thereby solve the problem) rationally. The legal standpoint and the direction it gives is a neat way of letting the organisers of the event make a choice: defuse the situation (by cancelling the event - a non-rational approach as far as the subject is concerned: the whole class is punished for the inability of those responsible to arrive at a rational solution) or take a rational approach: Yankee Dog's suggestion.

Getting people to behave rationally in a circumstance where they are normally irrational demands social process skills of the highest order: the debate mustn't be allowed to be derailed (with fearmongering or appeals to an irrational text on behavioural conformity) and has to be managed with extreme care. The solution to be arrived at should be a fair one or it will be widely condemned, a judgement on the leadership ability of the people involved.

As far as the age/gender choice of the prom participants is concerned: when you're talking about sex, there is no more conservative group than young adults. Their exposure to the debate may be broader than that of an older generation, but their personal experience of the subject is far more limited and their ability to rationalise is therefore extremely limited. So, you get powerful emotions in play on both sides; having their leadership similarly handicapped (through the promulgation of social norms designed to bring about a political result - usually a "divide and conquer" approach) doesn't help. As it is, the class as a whole has been punished in a most unfair manner, and as a result, they have turned on the the person they see as the one to blame: a person who has elected to push the boundaries of her immediate society with a display of courage - a refusal to lie about or hide her sexuality. In this fashion, your society destroys its young leaders and maintains the status quo. Anybody with the brains to analyse the result gets out and you're left with a society that has to find it's leaders from a pool of compliant mediocrity.

[Michael Emrys]

My personal view is that homosexuality is not natural - in the sense that the species is designed for procreating itself.

The matter is not that simple, as I suspect you already know. This issue is similar, indeed may be part of, the question of why altruism can exist since at first glance it would appear to be in-adaptive. I think it is reasonably clear that when population density passes certain points, the entire species begins to suffer in various ways. When that happens, as a species we tend to try various kinds of new behaviors to remedy the situation. It very well could be, although it is not to my knowledge either proven or disproved, that homosexuality could be one of those remedies. If thereby life improves for everybody, it probably also improves for your near kin, which means that some of your genes survive into the next generation. And that's all it takes for the instinct to survive as part of our behavioral repertoire..

Michael

[MeatEtr]

LESBIAN ORGY PROM!!!!

COUNT ME IN!!!!

[Affentitten]

I was saw a movie about lesbian cheerleaders at a prom. Do I get to have an expert opinion?

[Michael Emrys]

LESBIAN ORGY PROM!!!!

COUNT ME IN!!!!

...And then there's MeatBtr, true to form.

Michael

[xor+]

My personal view is that homosexuality is not natural - in the sense that the species is designed for procreating itself. Society has therefore a predisposition to think that this is normal. Anything else is abnormal.

I suspect what you're doing here, diesel, is twofold: you're projecting your own normative ideas onto evolution, in order to then derive support for your view from "nature".

[Tero]

I suspect what you're doing here, diesel, is twofold: you're projecting your own normative ideas onto evolution, in order to then derive support for your view from "nature".

Gay penguins and other species with same-sex couples do occur in nature so the entire discussion about how natural homosexuality is debatable.

IMO homosexuality is just another manifestation of the primal urge to procreate. It just happens to be an evolutionary dead end and the species lose that part of the gene pool in a natural manner when it comes to it being a dominant feature. In my view the recent "explosion" of human homosexuality is just a statistical anomaly as the human population has been growing exponentially.