Dubious Claims Department

[dieseltaylor]

I was playing Mad Russians HSG 3AD Spearhead and was slightly put off by the claims made for the division in the preamble. Some of the claims seemed dubious - and further research shows that thye go back a looong way.

Anyway what do you think?

http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/firsts.htm

Of Allied ground forces attacking the Third Reich, the "Spearhead" Division was the:

FIRST - To fire artillery shells into Germany.

FIRST - To advance across the German border.

FIRST - To capture a German town.

FIRST - To breach the Siegfried Line.

FIRST - To advance across the Siegfried Line.

FIRST - To shoot down a German plane with guns emplaced on German soil.

FIRST - To capture a major German city (Cologne - Germany's 4th largest).

FIRST - Ground invasion of Germany in force since Napoleon in 1810 (then Prussia).

and Record Holder - For the longest one-day advance through enemy territory in the history of mechanized warfare - 101 miles through central Germany on March 29, 1945.

Above "Firsts" in more detail

Division Commander throughout: Maj. Gen. Maurice Rose

* First artillery fired into Germany by 991st Field Artillery Bn. on 9/10/44 at 13:00 hrs. in vicinity of Eupen, Belgium, with 155mm M-12 self-propelled guns.

* First to advance across the German border by Task Force Lovelady under Lt. Col. William B. Lovelady, east of Eupen and south of Aachen, on 9/12/44 at 14:41 hrs.

* First to capture a German town, Roetgen, west of Bonn, by Task Force Lovelady, with first actual entry into the town by 83rd Armored Reconnaissance Bn., 9/12/44.

* First to breach the Siegfried Line by Task Force "X" under Lt. Col. Leander L. Doan in the vicinity of Scheidmuchle, Germany, on 9/13/44.

* First to advance across the Siegfried Line by Combat Command "A" on 9/15/44 under Brig. Gen. Doyle O. Hickey.

* First to shoot down a German plane [FW-190 fighter-bomber] from German soil by M-16 halftrack crew from Battery C, 486th AAA Bn on 9/18/44. T/5 Russ Eick, quad-.50 gunner.

* First to capture a major German city, Cologne, west side of Rhine River, during March 5-6, 1945.

* First ground invasion of Germany by foreign force since 1810, the final year of Napoloen's expeditions into then Prussia.

* Record Holder: Longest one-day advance in history by lead elements of the 3AD in the northward drive toward Paderborn, Germany, 3/29/45, 101 miles, as part of U.S. First Army operation to encircle the Ruhr Pocket.

Additional Major Accomplishments

by the Spearhead Division

* Played a major role in the decisive breakthrough of German positions northwest of St. Lo, France -- a crucial series of battles that would allow the Allies to break out from Normandy.

* In the area of Mortain, France, along with the 4th and 30th Infantry Divisions, checked and ultimately annihilated a German force of five divisions attempting to drive a wedge between the U.S. First and Third Armies.

* In the area of Mons, Belgium, blocked the primary escape route of a German Corps attempting to move westward into defensive positions inside Germany. Together with the 1st Infantry Division, defeated that German Corps in one of the most decisive battles of the Western Front.

* Played a major part in the severe fighting of the Battle of the Bulge counteroffensive, first in checking and then in destroying or forcing the surrender of pockets of sizable German forces.

* Forged nearly half of the ring in the encirclement of the Ruhr Pocket in Central Germany, which resulted in the largest single capture of enemy forces in all of WWII (Europe & Pacific) - 374,000 German Army soldiers.

* By the Division's rapid westward advance into Central Germany, played the key role in the forced shutdown of Germany's primary V1 and V2 rocket manufacturing facility outside of Nordhausen, Germany.

* Was the first Allied force to liberate a German slave labor camp (the equivalent of a concentration camp) - Nordhausen, Germany.

At WeBoB someone has said, and I agree, that the claims aslso seem to slight other forces involved. Also the invasion claim is manifestly false as the French captured several German villages in 1939.

The city of Roentgen in 2006 had a population of 8000 and apparently in Germany, as in the UK, a city can be very small - 2000 people. Villages and towns can be bigger.

Recon units were in Germany the previous day according to German records.

The longest mechanised advance seems quite a claim also and as yet I have not found anything better.

[Michael Emrys]

* In the area of Mons, Belgium, blocked the primary escape route of a German Corps attempting to move westward...

Shouldn't that be eastward?

* By the Division's rapid westward advance into Central Germany...

Again, shouldn't that be eastward?

Michael

[JonS]

* First to advance across the German border by Task Force Lovelady under Lt. Col. William B. Lovelady, east of Eupen and south of Aachen, on 9/12/44 at 14:41 hrs.

Is that 9th December, or 12th September?

Edit: looking at the other dates, it must be 9th September.

In that case, the only other likely contenders are 6th Army Group coming up from Marseilles.

Dunno. In general, though, that list seems to be making up firsts by defining things more and more narrowly.

"FIRST to cross a wooden bridge on a day beginning with 'T'!"

"FIRST to capture a Russian conscript between the 35 and 36 eastings!"

"FIRST to capture a town with more than 547 and less than 549 residents!"

etc.

Woo. Hoo.

Jon

[Affentitten]

I would have thought Aachen would rate as the first major German city ot fall. That was October 1944.

EDIT: Ok, I see the qualification is west of the Rhine. Or East?!! What JonS said.

[Stalins Organ]

Wouldn't the Soviets been likely to have achieved 1 or more of those??

[dieseltaylor]

The longest advance bugs me the most.

I see RTR did 51 miles in 5.5 hours in Italy do perhaps we can divide it into theatres and average speed per time segment

ME very good spot on the eastwards/westwards ..... you have to wonder if the 3 AD were retreating!!. Or simply that no one has ever really checked the website.

[Michael Emrys]

ME very good spot on the eastwards/westwards ..... you have to wonder if the 3 AD were retreating!!. Or simply that no one has ever really checked the website.

This has been happening a lot in the last 20-30 years, even in serious books where a decent editor/proofreader should be expected to catch such mistakes. One has to wonder just how much attention people are paying to what they write. BTW, I've noticed that the east-west confusion seems to be almost obligatory in books about the Normandy campaign. Infuriating.

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

* First to capture a major German city, Cologne, west side of Rhine River, during March 5-6, 1945.

The question of Cologne is interesting as depending how you read it then the capture of Cologne west of the Rhine is actually a restricted claim. What I mean is that Cologne straddled the Rhine with the old part west of the Rhine. After the bridges were blown it did mean the remaining German troops on the West Bank had nowhere to go when the US attacked. Though there was serious fighting

The Capture of Cologne

At 0400 on 4 March, all task forces attacked in their zones. Resistance on the division right was scattered and light. On the left, resistance was more stubborn, increasing with the proximity to the Rhine River.

Leading elements of Combat Command A's Task Force, Doan entered Cologne at 0710. House-to-house fighting developed, but the enemy defended with little spirit. The sharpest engagement occurred in the vicinity of the airfield which was defended by 16 88mm guns, both anti-tank and dual-purpose weapons. All these guns were overrun by a tank charge across the flat terrain executed under smoke cover with infantry riding the tanks of Task Force Kane.

On 6 March, all elements completed clearing the enemy from their zones with the exception of a small sector in the northwestern pan of Cologne which was cleared the following day.

http://www.3ad.com/history/wwll/dugan.pages/saga.pages/7germany2.htm

BTW, Aachen had apopulation of 80000 in 1860 and roughly 260000 currently so certainly smaller than Clogne [or even half of Cologne] which was rouhly 700000 during the war.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Battle_of_Aachen

BTW on another thread once discussed

Henceforth we would not be among a friendly populace nor would we be able to rely on the civil telephone lines as in Northern France where, at times, French Forces of the Interior would telephone ahead of our advancing troops to find the location and number of enemy troops.

[Bigduke6]

I'm pretty sure this is the record for sustained armored movement on the Allied side, and possibly for any side, during World War Two. There may have been some blitzkrieg advances in the early days of Barbarossa that were comparable - but then again they may well have not been.

As far as the Red Army is concerned, it's generally accepted that the record was by the Trans-Baikal Front, which crossed into Manchuria shortly after midnight on August 9, and by nightfall on August 9 had reached the foothills of the Greater Hsingan Mountains, and was still moving. This is a distance of 150 kilometers over generally roadless terrain, not by an armored division but the armored/mech elements of a full-up Tank Army (6th Guards).

Considering that elements of 6th Guards did not start the day on the very edge of the Soviet border, and that once night fell there were probably 3-4 hours more of driving before midnight, I think it is quite reasonable to conclude they almost certainly covered more than 101 miles in a 24-hour period. But just for the record, the way the Soviet histories trot out the data is 150 kilometers from the border to the foothills of the Hsingan, in about 18 hours.

in any case, 6th Guards Tank Army did they stop. Four days into the campaign they had covered 700 kilometers, or roughly 470 miles, when they were effectively at their end of their supply tether, and had driven behind and completely cut the communications of the entire Kwangtung Army.

They bypassed where possible - and given how open the theater was that was most of the time. The great bulk of the Kwangtung Army was never engaged. Where the Japanese fought back, the firepower advantage was heavily on the Soviet side. I would say the result speaks for itself: 700 kilometers in 96 hours.

I would say that 6th Guard Tank Army's performance in Manuchuria more than gives 3AD and Maurice Rose quite a run for their money, but of course Ross worked for Patton and he had much better PR.

Here is a useful linkie: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1986/RMF.htm

The 3AD claim they were the first to invade German territory since 1810 is hogwash, the Russian Army advanced fairly deeply into East Prussia during 1914.

The 3AD claim they were the first to capture a major German city is questionanable, the 1st Baltic Front captured Memel (after a seige) in late January '45, two months before 3AD captured Cologne. Memel was part of East Prussia, but of course had been taken from Lithuania not so long before.

[Sergei]

BTW, Aachen had apopulation of 80000 in 1860 and roughly 260000 currently so certainly smaller than Clogne [or even half of Cologne] which was rouhly 700000 during the war.

But that again depends on the definition of "major city". Certainly Berlin, with population of 4,5 million in 1939, was vastly bigger than Köln.

[dieseltaylor]

http://www.ifo.de/pls/guestci/download/CESifo%20Working%20Papers%202002/CESifo%20Working%20Papers%20November%202002/cesifo_wp808.pdf

Shows the damage to each cities housing stock by 1945 and incidentally the size of the cities attacked - of which apparently only 8 had populations over 500000. Interestingly the .pdf suggests that Bomber Harris was only carrying out his mission on flattening German cities as the policy was announced a week before he took his post!.

[dieseltaylor]

For the longest one-day advance through enemy territory in the history of mechanized warfare

1916 in fighting the Senussi 20 cars and 25 motor ambulances raided Bir Hakkim to rescue captured seamen. Round trip 36 hours 240 miles travelled.

[JonS]

Another thing occurs to me: this is the record of 3rd Armd Div, one of only two 'heavy' US armd divs in NWE. By doctrine and design these divisions were meant to exploit and lead the way. Frankly this division /should/ be able to make these claims, and many more liek them. Heck, it's not like the 4077th Garbage Disposal Battalion is going to be clearing many enemy held towns.

[Affentitten]

I'm still standing by my claim of being the first Australian to throw an orange frisbee the length of the Temple of Bel at Palmyra, Syria.

[Stalins Organ]

In how many throws?

[dieseltaylor]

The question now comes to mind how many other units are making bogus claims based on the 1947 US Army factsheets.

[Thomm]

And I claim to be the first one who skated up onto and down from the Akropolis on Rollerblades.

Since at that time I was the only one who had the things, it must be true.

Was happy that nobody beat me up, just because.

Best regards,

Thomm

[mididoctors]

"you see Marlon I'm the only man in Mega city 1 who can head eggs into a Bucket"

[researcher1]

In 1945, Major General Maurice Rose was killed by German gunfire near Paderborn while he was leading a convoy of his 3rd Armored Division troops. Back in 1942, he had been chief of staff of the 2nd Armored Divsion at Fort Benning. His rise up the career ladder to flag rank was very swift, in view of the fact that he was a lieutenant colonel at Benning. Here's a link to a somewhat rare picture of him and other staff members.

http://benning7.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/ft-benning-after-pearl-harbor