To the shores of Tripoli - bug or feature?

[phil stanbridge]

I have just been blown up by a vehicle borne IED, which I didn't see. But the thing is, my eyes on the ground were in LOS and they were spotting. They also had night vision. There was nothing close, surely if there was a large car in the way, they would have seen it for one thing, and lit it up for the second.

Check out these screenies. It doesn't make sense to me. Understandable if it was a hidden IED, but a car in full view??? My machine gun team had full LOS of the road ahead, and would have spotted and fired upon a vechile borne IED. Lots of unanswered questions here.

Edit, sorry the screen caps are so small, can redo if necessary. Also, those two screen caps were taken within seconds of each other - not enough time for a car to travel the distance unspotted surely?

[Pandur]

well that seems like a good frag ratio for the driver.

but i think thats civilian density for you...how do you make a difference between a car with empty trunk and one wich got a bomb in it?

for my taste VBIEDs are much too easy to spot. in some scenarios wich play in urban area you can see them from 500 meters away without them moveing at all, wich is more then odd.

[phil stanbridge]

well that seems like a good frag ratio for the driver.

but i think thats civilian density for you...how do you make a difference between a car with empty trunk and one wich got a bomb in it?

for my taste VBIEDs are much too easy to spot. in some scenarios wich play in urban area you can see them from 500 meters away without them moveing at all, wich is more then odd.

Maybe you are right. Indeed, he killed 18 men and knocked out my vehicle with one IED, plus my machine gun team fled as they panicked. You say density, but the thing is, you can see civilian vehicles as well as IED. My point is, this car was not seen as a unit on the map at all prior to the explosion, yet I had good LOS all around. (You can see other cars). As it was an IED you would have expected my men to spot at least a vehicle would you not? You can see other civilian vehicles all over, even if you can't identify them as IEDs unless you get close (read until it's too late!).

[handihoc]

Never had that happen, but yes, civilian density is apparently very much factored in but cannot be depicted graphically due to cpu demands. I would say, as you're on a main road, that there are realistically many civ vehicles approaching and passing your position (which cannot be shown), and you just happen to have drawn the short straw in that one of them had an IED and your boys simply didn't detect it.

Like I said, I've never had that happen - always spotted and destroyed them from a distance - but that's the only explanation I can think of.

A comment from Battlefront could be helpful here.

[phil stanbridge]

Never had that happen, but yes, civilian density is apparently very much factored in but cannot be depicted graphically due to cpu demands. I would say, as you're on a main road, that there are realistically many civ vehicles approaching and passing your position (which cannot be shown), and you just happen to have drawn the short straw in that one of them had an IED and your boys simply didn't detect it.

Like I said, I've never had that happen - always spotted and destroyed them from a distance - but that's the only explanation I can think of.

A comment from Battlefront could be helpful here.

I tend to agree with you here, although let's not forget this is at 3(ish) in the morning. Fog of war definitely plays a part but there wouldn't necessarily be that much civilian traffic on the road - that's why the mission was due to take place at this time, to limit civilian casualties, so I still find it very odd that this car was not seen at all. And even if there was traffic, the threat would be so high, that every moving vehicle would be seen as a potential target. If my men can see vehicles way in the distance, it makes no sense why they couldn't spot a vehicle right under them. It's not the point that the vehicle was an IED, it's the point that I couldn't see the unit on the map whatsoever. I had no chance to foil the attack (in a balanced Combat Mission world of course).

[Blackcat]

For what it is worth, I think Phil has been the victim of a glitch. When I played that scenario I saw the VBIED coming from a long way away and stooped it cold before it could get anywhere near my people.

I have just had a LOS event too. A T72 crested a ridge and drove into view. I could see it clearly on screen but none of my units apparentlly could. Several units, including a Javelin team had a clear LOS to the postion of the tank (a nice bright blue line) and for at least twenty metres all around it, but couldn't actually see the wretched thing. After a couple of minutes the Javelin team decided they could see it after all and fired.

[phil stanbridge]

For what it is worth, I think Phil has been the victim of a glitch. When I played that scenario I saw the VBIED coming from a long way away and stooped it cold before it could get anywhere near my people.

I have just had a LOS event too. A T72 crested a ridge and drove into view. I could see it clearly on screen but none of my units apparentlly could. Several units, including a Javelin team had a clear LOS to the postion of the tank (a nice bright blue line) and for at least twenty metres all around it, but couldn't actually see the wretched thing. After a couple of minutes the Javelin team decided they could see it after all and fired.

Hola Blackcat, I'm undecided if it is a glitch or not. It just seems odd doesn't it. I'm not entirely sure the 1:1 representation always works effectively, but it's certainly not BFC's fault from what I can make out. There is just too much data to continually compute. I have also seen the problem you mention, several times actually. I've put it down to other things, like smoke in the way, or haze or something. I had a T72 as it happens, in full view of my men, various squads, and a Challenger 2. Unfortunately none of my men or my tank would fire, and the T72 could. I was cresting a ridge too!

[flamingknives]

A few points:

Civilian density is what it is set to be. I don't think that it changes with time, so if 03:00 hrs is set to be high density, then high density it is, just the same as high density at 10:00 or 17:00 hrs.

You cannot see civilian cars, only abandoned red civilian vehicles. If civilian density is set to high then you have to assume that there is civilian traffic about all over the map (on the roads) but you can neither see nor affect it. In reality you could apply force protection methods such as roadblocks to isolate areas from civilian traffic (and potential IEDs). In the game there is no way to effect that without modelling civilian traffic.

[YankeeDog]

Can't speak to the rest, but high "Civilian Density" can indeed conceal a VBIED until it is right on top of your units.

Just like civilians on foot, active civilian vehicles are NOT shown in game. I think this was done primarily for processor/graphics card considerations -- it would take a very powerful computer indeed to run a game with even a modest number of civilian (noncombatant) vehicles running around. The time required to come up with AI routines for noncombatant vehicles was also probably a factor.

Some scenario designers do work around this by adding knocked out civilian vehicles to the map as parked cars, etc. These are the "other cars" you are seeing in the instant case -- note that these do not move. You will see a hit to frame rate and other game performance if the number of such vehicles gets very high.

So if you see a moving taxi or Toyota truck suddenly "pop up" in the middle of an open street in the game, this means your forces have just positively identified it as hostile -- it might have been within their LOS, but not IDEd as hostile, for quite some time already. In the case of VBIEDs, you need to imagine a dozen or more similar vehicles in the same area that are not being shown graphically in the game (assuming scenario designer has set civilian density to "high"). If you get lucky and your troops are good, you may still spot the VBIED at a distance and take it out before it gets close enough to cause damage. If not, things can get really nasty.

In my experience, spotting VBIEDs is extremely variable, and probably depends on a wide range of factors. So I don't think it's all that unusual that in two play-throughs of any given scenario, a certain VBIED might be spotted at very different distances.

The T-72 thing is probably something different; I don't think civilian density can hide tanks...

[Pandur]

funny thing that relative spoting is now a "glitch"

civi density woks for ALL uncons BUT "fighters"...its all in the manual, go figure!!!

[phil stanbridge]

Can't speak to the rest, but high "Civilian Density" can indeed conceal a VBIED until it is right on top of your units.

Just like civilians on foot, active civilian vehicles are NOT shown in game. I think this was done primarily for processor/graphics card considerations -- it would take a very powerful computer indeed to run a game with even a modest number of civilian (noncombatant) vehicles running around. The time required to come up with AI routines for noncombatant vehicles was also probably a factor.

Thanks for the replies. This is what I was harping on about when I was talking about 1:1 representation not working *that* effectively. It's all very well to represent your soliders and other units 1:1 but to leave out *other* factors that are equally important, well that's suckage really and blows rather large chunks. I can understand the reasons why they have been left out, but in my opinion it's not fun. At least we wont have this problem in Normandy! Although come the Russian front, suicide dogs anyone?

[MikeyD]

The scenario 'author' makes an appearance.

'Civilian density' is it. Its on purpose, makes up for lack of airpower on Red's part. If an uncon on a high density map doesn't make an aggressive move the troops can't distinguish it from the background clutter. I'magine its your local mall parking lot the day after Thanksgiving. Would you be able to spot that pesky VIED if it wasn't racing towards you? :eek:

[theFightingSeabee]

Maybe a couple of the guys got splashed during the amphibious landing and their nvg lenses were fogged up. This is one of those things that you need to extend some of your imagination towards.

MikeyD, great scenario by the way!