Russia 1941-1945, testing both sides

[hendriks65]

For the Weapons and Warfare expansion, with patch 6, I decided to test the Russia 1941-1945 scenario.

Clearly, set to normal, walk over for both sides (playing Russia or Germany), war finished in 1941.

Set to most difficult, 100% and bonus +2!, playing as Russia against a German AI I was astonished how rather dumb the AI is. The German AI upgraded its cities with AA level 2 and had clearly also researched this (1000MPP!!). Its attacks lacked ANY depth and creativity and as soon as partisans threatened a city in Yugoslavia, instead of sending a Rumanian corps, it send TWO panzer divisions there, taking the sting out of any attack. Riga never fell, hiding behind the rivers in the north is easy, Kiev never fell due to its great fortifications and in the south they managed to get Odessa but only after 8 months, at a great cost. I, as Russia, was quietly researching tanks and infantry, bought all destroyed units back and started an offensive that took me to Berlin with probably 100 units, couldn't buy more tanks and armies and really did not know what to do with the MPP's. Berlin fell in May 1942!

But, playing as Germany against a Russia set to bonus +2 and 100% difficulty, you loose against the AI (or rather, against its unit superiority and MPP's) in 2 years.

Playing with bonus +1 and difficulty 100% still made me lose although I did take Moscow, but in 1942 the USSR gets so many units, and its airunits are so strong and yours unaffordable to maintain, it becomes a shooting match which was exactly what the red airforce in 1942 was totally unable to do.

Hence, I switched to a Fall Weiss, as Allies, 100% and +2 bonus difficulty for myself. Even France was tedious, they took it, but clumsy and in August 1940. No movement of units, no, immediately redeploy and attack Yugoslavia. Norway was left alone, Denmark was attacked but took 2 turns. Then, an early attack into Russia, April 1941 I believe, I was not ready and they took quite a lot of terrain, this continued into 1942 and I lost Moscow, now I thought we see a more or less clever AI, until I got scared the game would be over if they knocked out the USSR which looked likely, so I gathered all my available USA units I had placed in the UK and did an overwhelmingly strong invasion in 1944, and what happened, no units in France! One infantry in Brest, one in Paris, I could walk in no problems, no aircraft, no tanks, Paris was taken the next turn, no reinforcements came either from the east, instead, the German AI kept attacking in the east, and I even lost Leningrad, but still hanging on in Stalingrad and plenty of delaying units on the way. In the meantime, I liberate almost unopposed France and the low countries, I march into the Ruhr and there's one infantry unit opposing me, I continue and 2 turns later I'm in Berlin! The goverment moves to Munich, which by now is surrounded. Germany keeps attacking in the east, I see level 3 tanks moving around but they are not moving back to protect the fatherland....2 turns later Germany surrenders, game over...rather a disappointment after a good start, no invasion AI I would say...

Conclusion, Russia in the Russia 1941-45 scenario is far overpowered, especially in aircraft and MPP, Germany is far underpowered. A Russian player can quite easily win the most difficult setting and +2 max bonus. Other way around no way.

In the bigger campaigns the AI loses the overview and places far too many units as Germany in the east, leaving France wide open, a few infantry and corpses would make a great difference.

I hope future patches can improve this otherwise awesome game, thanks Hubert!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

The AI has always been a crapshoot. You can script it to death and hope for the best, but as a campaign designer you can't prevent it from upgrading all its cities with AA (even those far from any enemy strat bombers), attacking when it should be on the defense, being distracted by the most trivial of diversions (your partisan example), and so on and on. I don't think Kuni put too much work on the AI however in the Barbarossa scenario.

That said, the Russians are a bit overpowered in Kuni's scenario-as the Russians I wiped the map in a testgame with the designer in a manner similar to yours-carefully husband remaining units, wait outside the reach of his supply lines, rebuild as many shattered tank units as possible, and counterattack at the right moment. He only partially remedied things in a patch. It's hard to get many surrounded pockets of enemy troops, so you can't kill a unit for good (and it seems like the force limits don't always drop the build limit by one when that happens)-if they have a city in there, even one bombed to the stone age, they'll usually get at to least 1 point of supply (and don't get me started on all those resupplies through ZOCs). Without the ability to quickly and efficiently surround and kill Russian units, the German player ends up seeing all these units he killed rise up like zombies, again and again.

[carverrt]

It is hard to make a game covering the whole Eastern campaign perfect, but one thing about SC is that it can always be improved upon. The comments are great.

The one thing I always saw as needed in this scenario was a purchase scripts. The AI needs direction in this regard.

Robert

[hendriks65]

The USSR simply gets far too many units around August 1941 time, and the 15 mechs that are put into action at game start are also quite overdone, simply too many units on the USSR side and too much money to upgrade it all, as opposed to the German side where you only have Korps, no armies. You need to immediately spend 1000 on infantry weapons or you're cooked.

[Bill101]

I've actually seen both sides win a number of times in PBEM games, but the key to Axis success is in what they do in the first few months. If the Soviets can stop them in a key area (e.g. Kiev, which is probably the most important place on the map) then the Germans will probably lose.

[hendriks65]

Well, I'm just moving as fast as possible forewards, and have by July a line from Lake Peipus to Smolensk, before Kiev which is impossible to take unless you use units from the north and surrounded Odessa, which is also quite difficult. I can't believe if PBEM is played neutral/neutral, ANY German player has any chance, I would like to see that. I think the biggest problem is the 10-15 armies the USSR gets on August 10th, that's usually when I stall as Germany. Now, as said, the USSR I can't play as I'm in Berlin by May 1942 on hardest settings and bonus +2 for Germany, so something must be wrong then...

[Bill101]

I've found that taking Kiev is absolutely vital, and playing this scenario has made me realise why Hitler sent his Panzers south to help out in the Ukraine.

[hendriks65]

It can probably only be attempted on neutral settings, in a new patch I would lower the USSR MPP's and give it less free units, amd sending units to the south is great, but cities remain giving 50% supply so can never be starved as happened IRL, neither would they surrender en masse.

[Kuniworth]

Hey Hendriks65 glad you play the scenario. If you would like we could work together to improve it.

[hendriks65]

Sure, would like to, immediate problem is overpowered and overimproved soviet units, combined with far too many free units too early in the game. Not 1 single single extra "tankarized" unit is required, or even those but then without any extra units becoming available prior to December 1941. Taking Moscow is possible even with those units, but on a every extra help + completely trained GER player playing against the Germans is impossible. On par, even that is rather impossible to achieve, or is for me at least with a lot of training and insight. Northern from is better represented then southern, which leaves no room for manouvre, so yes, would like to wlrk together to get the OOB corrected, which would leave a far deeper penetration possible then current set up without compromizing the other fronts.

[Kuniworth]

Sure, would like to, immediate problem is overpowered and overimproved soviet units, combined with far too many free units too early in the game. Not 1 single single extra "tankarized" unit is required, or even those but then without any extra units becoming available prior to December 1941. Taking Moscow is possible even with those units, but on a every extra help + completely trained GER player playing against the Germans is impossible. On par, even that is rather impossible to achieve, or is for me at least with a lot of training and insight. Northern from is better represented then southern, which leaves no room for manouvre, so yes, would like to wlrk together to get the OOB corrected, which would leave a far deeper penetration possible then current set up without compromizing the other fronts.

First of all I aim to get a historical correct OOB in this is scenario. This is actually what the eastern front looked like in early 1941, all free unit is armies that STAVKA raised on these dates to fight the invader. Maybe we can play around with strength values and combat values but the OOB I want to be historical while in the same time the game should play out historical. The german player should in short have the initiative during 1941-42 and after that the russian side will be too powerful. Like what happened.

What I would like, but unfortunately the game does not allow it, is to set a lower build limit cap on russian tanks. The soviet player would start with all mech corps(like 29 of them) but have a hard build limit of 6(number of tank armies during the war) so almost every tank that is lost except 6 cant be purchased back. Meanwhile 6 tank armies would be in production queue from 1942 onwards on the historical dates so if the russian player loses his initial tanks he must wait until may 1942 to begin to get them back and only can have 6 of them!

That would probably slow down the soviet advantage quite a bit and make it able for the german forces to penetrate deeper into Russia and preserve the panzer-corps.

[Bill101]

What I would like, but unfortunately the game does not allow it, is to set a lower build limit cap on russian tanks.

There is a way this can be done, and that is to start the game with no more than 6 deployed either on the map or in the production queue, and with the build limit set to 6.

Then have all the remaining tank units deploy by script on turn 1 (or later, if they are currently in the production queue).

Would this work here?

[Kuniworth]

There is a way this can be done, and that is to start the game with no more than 6 deployed either on the map or in the production queue, and with the build limit set to 6.

Then have all the remaining tank units deploy by script on turn 1 (or later, if they are currently in the production queue).

Would this work here?

Problem is that germans move first. They historically smashed a lot of soviet mech corps on the first move, if you script all of them to appear, all of those in the frontline will appear at the soviet turn(cant appear in start of german turn unfortunately) ready to go without the german player able to touch them. Thus creating an even worse position for the german player.

What I tried to do so far in the scenario was to place all mech corps in script that was not in the immediate frontline. This way I could cut down the build limit to like 10-12 instead of 29 but it still too much considering that later in the war the Soviet union fielded only 6 tank armies(although larger than a panzer corps each of them of course)

This is the reason Ive been bugging poor Hubert for the ability to start with a lot of units but have a lower hard build limit for producing new units. That would simulate the bye bye of the mech corps and emerging of the tank armies. I could then also make the same with the airforce, simulate the transformation from military district organization into air armies.

[Bill101]

I think it would work if Germany didn't start at war with the USSR. That way, when Germany DOWs on the USSR in turn 1, the unit scripts will immediately fire, deploying the tanks so that the Panzers can then smash them to pieces!

[Kuniworth]

I think it would work if Germany didn't start at war with the USSR. That way, when Germany DOWs on the USSR in turn 1, the unit scripts will immediately fire, deploying the tanks so that the Panzers can then smash them to pieces!

I tried it and the unit scripts do not fire right away, but on the next soviet turn. Which is the way it already works. Maybe I tried the wrong way?

Another not quite irrelevant question I have concern the WaW D-day scenario. Some british tanks there got 1 strike while others have 2. How do you do that?

Also that scenario lacks the 506th PIR which is too bad as it was the unit with "Easy company" from the band of brothers. But that is another story.

[arado234]

Kuniworth what your doing with the OOB is right.I wouldnt change anything.Remember(as you also know)the Germans were WAY outgunned when they attacked Russia.The main reason why they did so well is because the Russians did like you said got most of their mech.troops wiped out right away(Germanys command structure was WAY better).If the Russians had also been commanded properly I doubt weather Germany would have even made it nearly as far as they did.

I guess the problem with any WW2 game is hindsight.The Allied player knows not to make these mistakes and with the vastly superior numbers and if all things are set historically they should never loose.That of course would be no fun,so for you and all the rest of you game designers to come up with such fabulous and fun games and make them winnable for both sides but still not be way to far off the historical mark is a great achievement.

[Bill101]

I tried it and the unit scripts do not fire right away, but on the next soviet turn. Which is the way it already works. Maybe I tried the wrong way?

Ok, I'll have a think about this.

Another not quite irrelevant question I have concern the WaW D-day scenario. Some british tanks there got 1 strike while others have 2. How do you do that?

Ah, I think I know the reason for this, because if a unit has been placed in an amphib in the editor, and then you change the unit type's combat stats, the amphib unit will retain the combat stats that it had when it was first placed in the amphib.

I noticed this by chance while designing the PTO scenario, and as no one had ever mentioned/noticed this before I didn't raise it because it seemed like it could be a potentially good way to have units with two types of stats in a game. Not that I've yet thought of a practical use for it!

I didn't design the D-Day scenario so can't comment on whether or not it was intentional.

[Bill101]

I've had a go with the scripts and you're right, the unit is arriving at the end of the first turn.

I am now wondering whether using soft build limits might be the answer, because that should act as a good deterrent against players buying more than the number you want them to have. Plus the soft build penalty can be set quite high if you want.

[Kuniworth]

I've had a go with the scripts and you're right, the unit is arriving at the end of the first turn.

I am now wondering whether using soft build limits might be the answer, because that should act as a good deterrent against players buying more than the number you want them to have. Plus the soft build penalty can be set quite high if you want.

No soft build limits still approve a lot of tanks even if there are 100% penalty, so when the russian get strong they will just massproduce tanks instead of the historical numbers of remaing armies and game will collapse faster than ever. Meanwhile if you replace scripts with soft build limits they will still start with 29 tanks before soft build limit kicks in.

What I would like is the next version in the series make it possible to place out more units than the build limit. When you go to country data you can never set the build limit smaller than unitws on map and in production. If only that function just would let you set what ever number you want and then kick in during the game instead.

[Kuniworth]

Ah, I think I know the reason for this, because if a unit has been placed in an amphib in the editor, and then you change the unit type's combat stats, the amphib unit will retain the combat stats that it had when it was first placed in the amphib.

.

Interesting, I tested to set the mech corps to extremly poor values and then make them amphibious, alter Russia's tank values back to normal and then turn the mech corps back on land but it turned back to normal lol

[Bill101]

Meanwhile if you replace scripts with soft build limits they will still start with 29 tanks before soft build limit kicks in.

I'm not actually recommending that you abolish any of your current scripts, far from it. Keep them there.

If the scenario starts with 12 tanks on the map won't that be your build limit, with soft build limits starting from there?

But another way to keep things rare is to increase the price. That way a desperate Soviet player will buy back more armies than tanks.

What I would like is the next version in the series make it possible to place out more units than the build limit. When you go to country data you can never set the build limit smaller than unitws on map and in production. If only that function just would let you set what ever number you want and then kick in during the game instead.

I guess that the right name for this suggestion would be a rebuild limit.

[Bill101]

Interesting, I tested to set the mech corps to extremly poor values and then make them amphibious, alter Russia's tank values back to normal and then turn the mech corps back on land but it turned back to normal lol

I've just tested this too, and all I can say is that it certainly used to happen! Maybe it was just a temporary issue that's been fixed since, but as a result I cannot explain the difference in the number of strikes.

[Kuniworth]

I'm not actually recommending that you abolish any of your current scripts, far from it. Keep them there.

If the scenario starts with 12 tanks on the map won't that be your build limit, with soft build limits starting from there?

Yes but as I want to reduce number of tanks to a historical figure(6 tank armies) there is no need to have a soft build limit higher than 12, a hard build limit at 12 is better. I would gladly reduce it down to 6 tanks and set it as hard build limit but that is not possible as many mech corps were positioned near the border and must be in the starting line up. That's why 12 mech corps start on the map and the rest that was not under immediate threat arrives through scripting.

I guess that the right name for this suggestion would be a rebuild limit.

Yes that was a good name for it, as long as we are talking about number of units you can rebuild and field on the map and not the number of times a certain unit can be destroyed and brought back.