Air Assault

[Cipher]

This game would be perfect for air assault. Just sayin.

[Apocal]

Use reinforcements to simulate it.

[dan/california]

It is generally accepted that the improvements in fire control systems and related technologies have made heli-borne assaults into truly hot LZs essentially suicidal. Current doctrine in all but the most permissive air defense environments calls for landing troops outside of the immediate tactical engagement area.

Even the Iraqis, who were pretty clueless, ineffective, and or unmotivated in 2003 made flying helicopters anywhere close to troop concentrations positively unhealthy.

The inclusion of the IBCT in the upcoming British module will allow the modeling of almost all realistic airborne/ air assault scenarios.

There have been multiple threads on this, use search.

[Los]

Yet somehow air assaults were and are still carried out....In Vietnam there were upmteen air assaults carrier out into very hot LZs. Vietnamese w/ PKs RPGs, and RPDs, Afghans/Iraqis w PKs, RPGs, RPDs. (Granted don't assault SAM sites and Shilkas.) There are plenty of scenarios to be played out. Though as APocal says I usually start out those types of scenarios with the guys on the ground in their post landing perimeter.

[YankeeDog]

Vietnam was over 35 years ago and tactics and technology have moved on considerably since then. Tactics in Vietnam are no more relevant to today's battlefield than early WWII tactics are to Vietnam. There are still some commonalities, but there are also big changes.

Even in Vietnam, it wasn't doctrine to do Air Assaults into a hot LZ; the idea was to drop near, but not on, the enemy, and establish a perimeter around the LZ before the enemy could react. But the dense terrain made it difficult to determine exactly where the enemy was, and the Viet Cong & NVA got very good at getting in close to the LZs and contesting them. So it didn't always work as planned.

At the time, the US Military judged the risk to be worth taking -- the Viet Cong had a fairly limited supply of weapons heavier than small arms. Also, guided man-portable AA weapons were very new, and the NVA/VC didn't have very many of them. Relatively few choppers were actually shot down, considering the total number of transport chopper sorties flown into LZs over the course of the entire war.

After Vietnam, doctrine moved further away from any situation where choppers might have to fly into a hot LZ. Air Mobile operations are still part of U.S. doctrine. It's just generally done well away from any known enemy presence. The fallout from one of the times in recent history the US violated this rule, the infamous Blackhawk Down incident, has caused US Military planners to move even further away from this kind of of operation.

And if Somali tribesmen with only small arms and RPGs can bring down a couple of Blackhawks, imagine what a better trained and equipped force with Strela and Igla MANPADS can do; the Syrians have both of these, in quantity. To protect an LZ from small arms and RPG fire that was the predominant threat in Vietnam, you needed a perimeter radius of a few hundred meters. To protect an LZ from modern MANPADS, you need a perimeter radius of over 3 kilometers.

So I agree with previous opinions: tactically speaking, 95% of modern air assault can be effectively modeled by the scenario designer using setup zones and reinforcement locations. At the CM scale, given the range of modern MANPADS, the LZ would probably usually be off-map, with forces appearing on a map edge after an approach march. Would it be nice to also have the choppers flying in, dropping off troops and then whisking away into the night? Sure. But given all the additional 3D models and animations this would require, I don't think it's worth it for what would essentially be eye & ear candy.

And if you do want to model that remaining 5% of air mobile operations that involve landing in a contested area, then you're talking about all sorts of new game features. For starters, if you're going to model guys tumbling out of choppers within sight of the enemy, then, to be realistic, you have to directly model MANPADS, and countermeasures -- flares, active electronics jamming, etc. The whole ground-to-air contest could almost be an entire game by itself.

Cheers,

YD

[SD Smack]

Yankee Dog is right, I wont repeat everything he said but will add a few things. Along with poliferation of inexpensive AA systems is a sharp increase in the over all cost and operation of helicopters. The old Hueys are a drop in the bucket compared to newer aircraft. And the trend is for the aircraft only to become more sophisticated and therefore more expensive. Commanders are very hesitant to send aircraft into a hot area. In Iraq they don't even allow Chinooks to fly during the day. A true air assault would require SEAD fires as well as CAS and the LZ would still not be on the objective.

I agree having helicopters physically modeled in game would be cool, but as was pointed out the cost/benefit is not worth it. I do wish that Red forces would get MANPADS. This would at least give them some chance to protect themselves from air attack. Currently as soon as CAS shows up you might as well bail out your crews or watch them die.

Steve

[dan/california]

We are wandering off topic here, but the combination of JDAMS and laser guidance has allowed the Air Force to just stay above most of the MANPAD threat envelope. I am sure someone is working on better MANPADS but it just takes a bigger rocket motor to get to 25000 feet, and then its not a MANPAD anymore.

I do think that manned helicopters are about to become obsolete in all but the most permissive environments. Drones and Precision guided artillery have showed up just in time.

[dan/california]

Also, scenario designers can model better AA by just not giving Blue the air assets in the first place.

[Rustman]

Yankee Dog is right, I wont repeat everything he said but will add a few things. Along with poliferation of inexpensive AA systems is a sharp increase in the over all cost and operation of helicopters. The old Hueys are a drop in the bucket compared to newer aircraft. And the trend is for the aircraft only to become more sophisticated and therefore more expensive. Commanders are very hesitant to send aircraft into a hot area. In Iraq they don't even allow Chinooks to fly during the day. A true air assault would require SEAD fires as well as CAS and the LZ would still not be on the objective.

I agree having helicopters physically modeled in game would be cool, but as was pointed out the cost/benefit is not worth it. I do wish that Red forces would get MANPADS. This would at least give them some chance to protect themselves from air attack. Currently as soon as CAS shows up you might as well bail out your crews or watch them die.

Steve

Well..in Iraq the Army may not allow their Chinooks to fly during the day, but I do know that Sea Knights can and do go out during day time. We've called in Air Medivac in the middle of the day before and like 10 minutes later a Sea Knight and 2 Super Cobras will be on station looking for the LZ. It's not completely unheard of to fly into a contested area...just now they bring their own CAS with them all the time instead of trusting our judgemend on whether they'll need armed escort or not.

[dan/california]

But iraq is a very low level counter insurgency with an opponent who cannot mass his forces AT ALL. The game is simulating a much higher intensity conflict where there is still opposition in formed units. And the possibility of few ZSU 23s around.

Absent a true nightmare "seize the nuke at all cost" kind of scenario the US is quite careful with its helicopters. But, maybe if they can be convinced of the market demand BFC could be convinced to do a whole module on heli-borne assaults, because that is how much work it would involve.

[YankeeDog]

Ya, in Iraq today, MANPADs are a rarity. While helicopters are notoriously susceptible to the "lucky hit," military helicopters in general are designed to be able to take quite a few hits from small arms fire without catastrophic failure. So it's not surprising that the U.S. military is willing to risk a few holes in a helicopter, when it's an important mission like getting a badly wounded soldier off the battlefield.

But once an enemy has shoulder-launched AA missiles in any quantity, it's a whole different ballgame. And in a hot war against an organized opponent, there almost certainly would be. Even 1970-era Strela-type missiles (which both Iran and North Korea make copies of now) are extremely dangerous to a helicopter that's low and slow. With one of these, all it takes is one guy with a decent hiding place within 3km of the LZ, and you're probably going to end up with millions of dollars of wrecked airframe, as well as multiple casualties.

I think it's great the folks are pushing the envelope, and using CM:SF to model counterinsurgency operations and the like. But it's important to remember that this is not the kind of conflict that the game designers originally set out to model, so there are some pieces missing for this kind of thing. Would it be great to get these additional pieces? Sure. But given limited resources, the designers had to make the cut somewhere and I think it's understandable that they left direct modeling of Air Assault out of the game, given the huge amount of time and effort it would take to get it in.

Cheers,

YD

[travcrouse]

Sort of on-topic:

I modified the USMC Rahadnak Valley Search scenario by turning it in to what I thought a Marine helicopter assault in to the valley would look like.

Obviously, I took out all the AAV's and assorted wheeled reinforcements. Each of the three infantry platoons was initially set up in a 'perimeter' type configuration to simulate that they had just jumped out of their rides.

One platoon was placed on one of the hills southwest of town.

One platoon placed on the hills in the original set-up zone.

The final platoon placed in one of the gullies by the road west of town.

I reinforced the company with a squad of snipers placed in strategic hides in the hills.

Reinforcements consisted of a LAV scout platoon with a variable arrival time between 30-40 min.

Fire support consisted of 60mm mortars, a Cobra mission, and a Strike Eagle.

Finally, I reset the game clock to 0500 to make it a pre-dawn assault.

When I mod an existing scenario I never look at the Red OoB of deployments to preserve the fog of war for myself. Any comments from those who are familiar with the Red situation in this scenario? Too few or too many Marines? Ridiculous mod?

[hcrof]

Well I played as red in that mission against a human opponent and found it very hard going. The marines outnumber the insurgents and all seem to be elite so every time you open fire they will instantly shoot back and just not miss, even if you are in cover. The ridiculous amount of firepower on the LAV's/AAV's was also a problem as they just hung out of RPG range and reduced my options badly.

The only thing I had success with was snipers but there is only so much damage they can do. If you are editing the mission, I would say you are right in getting rid of the AAV's, the LAVs are enough. I would also increase the experience of the insurgents to regular rather than green/conscript. Finally I would make the Marines slightly less experienced. Right now the scenario is realistic and probably fun for blue but is not good for H2H.

[SD Smack]

As Apocal said reinforcements is the easiest way to replicate an air assault/air movement. This can be done in one of two ways:

1) Have reinforcements appear at the LZ simulating being inserted by helicopters, or

2) Have the reinforcements show up on a map edge having walked from the LZ to the battle as was done in the second battle of the Marine Campaign.

Rustman-

I have a buddy of mine who was out in T-Q back 06-07 and said the Marines used thier 46s for CASEVAC during the day while the Army flew at night....not really sure why I shared that other than to agree with you about flying 46s during the day

Steve

[Rustman]

Sort of on-topic:

I modified the USMC Rahadnak Valley Search scenario by turning it in to what I thought a Marine helicopter assault in to the valley would look like.

Obviously, I took out all the AAV's and assorted wheeled reinforcements. Each of the three infantry platoons was initially set up in a 'perimeter' type configuration to simulate that they had just jumped out of their rides.

One platoon was placed on one of the hills southwest of town.

One platoon placed on the hills in the original set-up zone.

The final platoon placed in one of the gullies by the road west of town.

I reinforced the company with a squad of snipers placed in strategic hides in the hills.

Reinforcements consisted of a LAV scout platoon with a variable arrival time between 30-40 min.

Fire support consisted of 60mm mortars, a Cobra mission, and a Strike Eagle.

Finally, I reset the game clock to 0500 to make it a pre-dawn assault.

When I mod an existing scenario I never look at the Red OoB of deployments to preserve the fog of war for myself. Any comments from those who are familiar with the Red situation in this scenario? Too few or too many Marines? Ridiculous mod?

Not bad...I haven't played that scenario yet, so I'm not sure about the troops avaliable for Red. A blue force is going to tailor their level force based on what kind of resistance they are going to expect in completing their objectives. The only thing that I see is that maybe you are underestimating what an air assault force can actually do. Between Sea Knights, Sea Stallions, Blackhawks, etc., they would be able to air assault with pretty much anything except an Abrams or an AAV. Even the LAV-25 falls within the payload capacity of a Super Stallion. Back in 2000 I took part in a training event where we air assaulted the entire brigade and we pretty much took everything except the kitchen sink by helicopter..HMMWVs, MTVs, artillery, you name it. As it concerns assets they could get into the fight, your blue force wouldn't really be constrained too much from a technical perspective as they would be self-limiting based on mission criteria.

SD Smack - lol...My company was based out of Camp Fallujah from 06 to 07, and the rest of my battalion was based out of TQ, so those TQ aircraft were actually the ones we were calling in.

[travcrouse]

The only thing that I see is that maybe you are underestimating what an air assault force can actually do.

I figured the Marines could and would bring everything but the kitchen sink, but because I wasn't sure of the composition of the Red force I didn't want to make the mission too easy for Blue...

You guys have made me want to go back and tinker some more with this scenario...

[travcrouse]

Back in 2000 I took part in a training event where we air assaulted the entire brigade and we pretty much took everything except the kitchen sink by helicopter..HMMWVs, MTVs, artillery, you name it.

It's a privelege to talk to someone who has done this stuff in real life.

Even the LAV-25 falls within the payload capacity of a Super Stallion

I worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier while in the Navy and managed to get blown around by those beasts on more than one occasion! It's amazing how large and powerful they are.

A couple of other scenarios that I thought would be ideal for modding into air assault type battles would be Green Zone and Mujahideen Valley.

By the way, Happy 4th of July to everyone! A million thanks to everyone in uniform.

[Rustman]

It's a privelege to talk to someone who has done this stuff in real life.

I worked on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier while in the Navy and managed to get blown around by those beasts on more than one occasion! It's amazing how large and powerful they are.

A couple of other scenarios that I thought would be ideal for modding into air assault type battles would be Green Zone and Mujahideen Valley.

By the way, Happy 4th of July to everyone! A million thanks to everyone in uniform.

Unfortunately my experience at air assault end with training and what little I took away from the Air Assault Operations section of my Reserve Component Long Range Recon Leaders Correspondence Course (No..I'm totaly not kidding with that either..I became a so-called "expert" on LRS Operations via correspondence course). Anyway, by the time I actually deployed for any real world operations I had moved on to a mechanised battalion.

What really suprised me when I was looking up weights and payloads is how heavy the AAV's are. Where does all the weight come from? It's not from arms or armor that's for sure 'cause other than the fact that it can somewhat efficiently swim, as a combat vehicle, they really really suck.

..and happy 4th of July to you too! Thank you for serving also!

[snake_eye]

The game is pretty much suited to Air Assault, if you are considering a cold LZ not so far from the objective, but not too far either. You can also set an artillery pounding on the objective or near it, if you don't want to destroy the buildings (if these are the objective) you must take undamaged by fire and muffled with the explosion (is it taken in account in the game ?) the noise made by the approach of the air delivered troops.

As for my experience, I won't set an assault on a presumably hot LZ even with a preceeding straffing of the area. If an insertion has to be made very close to the objective a high altitude and long distance drop has to be considered. The special forces carrying it would rather land on top of the objective in total silence, secure key positions and fire only when the assault is being made by troops being delivered on a not so far cold LZ and having been prepositionned prior to the Special Forces landing on their assault departure line.

That needs a perfect synchronization (to avoid blue on blue), but the enemy has more than two fronts at the least to fight at a moment notice and in the night they will have difficulties to sort things out.

I try that approach on the scenario "Assault the dam" loaded on the repository and finding it too easy (in the game that is) I decided to keep the cold LZ landing and not the SF landing on or near the bridge.

Cheer