LOS fix for 1.2 'bone'

[Sivodsi]

IIRC there was some sort of bug in v1.11 and earlier that muted the full value of LRAS3. We fixed that for v1.20 if my memory serves me correctly. v1.20 will come to you guys when British Forces Module is released.

(From the 'whiskey tango foxtrot' thread)

I thought this 'bone' (using ' ' because I'm not sure if its been mentioned before) was worthy of a thread of its own.

I'd like to know the extent of the LOS bug 1.11 and what else the fix in 1.2 will affect. For example, does this bug affect spotting in hull down positions, particularly for TOW equipped LAV, Stryker and Bradleys?

At present it is almost impossible to put them into position where only their TOW launcher is visible. They are either visible enough to be hit in the hull, or they cannot see the enemy.

[Battlefront.com]

It wasn't an LOS bug, though no doubt some little ones were found and fixed. The thing with LRAS3 was about how well it spotted things it could already draw LOS to. Remember, Spotting and LOS are completely different concepts. One determines what you actually see, the other determines what you can possibly see. Generally speaking, you can draw LOS to far more than you can actually see.

There are various issues with vehicles that have "sensors" at more than one level. For example, a Stryker has a set of sensors on the RWS (Remote Weapons Station) and Mk1 Eyeballs at a lower height. This poses a few problems for us because if we simulated every set of eyeballs' and every sensor's ability to spot things we'd probably have ourselves a rather mad CPU

Having said that, I know some changes were made to vehicles with diverse spotting heights. I honestly don't remember the circumstances. As luck would have it I just asked Charles for an up-to-date fix because I need to brush up on the stuff that was fixed just after v1.11 was released. Normally during testing we only get the NEW fixes, never a cumulative fix list since often times there are contradictions (i.e. a newer fix overrides an older one). When I get it I'll take a look and see if there's something to report.

Steve

[gibsonm]

I'd like to know the extent of the LOS bug 1.11 and what else the fix in 1.2 will affect. For example, does this bug affect spotting in hull down positions, particularly for TOW equipped LAV, Stryker and Bradleys?

At present it is almost impossible to put them into position where only their TOW launcher is visible. They are either visible enough to be hit in the hull, or they cannot see the enemy.

Well it doesn't matter with the Bradley at least because if you can fire the 25mm you can fire the TOW (since the TOW launcher is beside, not above, the gun).

[Sivodsi]

There are various issues with vehicles that have "sensors" at more than one level. For example, a Stryker has a set of sensors on the RWS (Remote Weapons Station) and Mk1 Eyeballs at a lower height. This poses a few problems for us because if we simulated every set of eyeballs' and every sensor's ability to spot things we'd probably have ourselves a rather mad CPU

Steve

Thanks for answer Steve, much appreciated.

One determines what you actually see, the other determines what you can possibly see. Generally speaking, you can draw LOS to far more than you can actually see.

Oh yeah, just had a painful experience of this. Bradley, with LOS to the only possible approach by my evil opponent at the start of the PBEM turn:

Note the turret is not turned to the centre of the covered arc. Below is the same tank 36 seconds later:

You can see the flash of the enemy tank's gun, a t72, but at no point do you see the tank, which apparently has developed stealth abilities.

Just a couple of moves before a T72 had come into this Bradley's LOS and it went as planned, the Bradley zapped him with a TOW, and then not surprisingly, backed away. I moved him forward so that he had a clear shot down the canyon again. The worrying thing is that the turret did not move back to the centre of the covered arc.

Is there a recorded bug about tanks locking into certain positions, and not moving back to the centre of an target arc?

I get the feeling that my guy was not using his full spotting capabilities...

[Dietrich]

Just a couple of moves before a T72 had come into this Bradley's LOS and it went as planned, the Bradley zapped him with a TOW, and then not surprisingly, backed away. I moved him forward so that he had a clear shot down the canyon again. The worrying thing is that the turret did not move back to the centre of the covered arc.

Is there a recorded bug about tanks locking into certain positions, and not moving back to the centre of an target arc?

Could this have had anything to do with whether or not the TOW launcher was in the process of being reloaded at the time? I don't know off the top of my head (in part because I almost always play real-time) how long it usually takes to reload a Bradley's TOW launcher. You mentioned the Bradley reversing out of LOS, and I find that this occurs often after launching a TOW, even if there's another TOW in the second launcher and ready to go.

[Sivodsi]

Well it doesn't matter with the Bradley at least because if you can fire the 25mm you can fire the TOW (since the TOW launcher is beside, not above, the gun).

To respectfully split hairs, the launcher is above the gun, as well as to the side:D

However, the question is whether the Bradley has visual sensors capable of targeting the enemy above the the LOS of the gun to be able to take advantage of this height.

Well, obviously not in the same way as the LAV and Stryker TOW launchers, but even if such sensors are in the commander's cupola it could make a difference if you want to get into a position where only the TOW launcher is exposed.

So, a question to those in the know: is it possible to target the Bradley's TOW on the enemy while the gun is below the crest of a hill?

[Sivodsi]

Could this have had anything to do with whether or not the TOW launcher was in the process of being reloaded at the time? I don't know off the top of my head (in part because I almost always play real-time) how long it usually takes to reload a Bradley's TOW launcher. You mentioned the Bradley reversing out of LOS, and I find that this occurs often after launching a TOW, even if there's another TOW in the second launcher and ready to go.

How long does it take to reload the TOW? There was at least a full turn between the firing of the TOW and getting trashed.

[SD Smack]

How long does it take to reload the TOW? There was at least a full turn between the firing of the TOW and getting trashed.

I did a rather quick test and here is what I found:

When firing only one missle:

M3#1: 35 seconds

M3#2: 36 seconds

M3#3: 37 seconds

When firing both missles:

M3#1: 72 seconds

M3#2: 73 seconds

M3#3: 73 seconds

All were veteran. I did tested the M2 as well and the numbers seemed the same (I forgot to right them down ). The only difference I saw was one was crack and it seemed to take a few econds less if I remember correctly. I did not test the Stryker or LAV.

As for the target arc, if the gunner is reloading the TOW the turret will remain in the last firing position it was in regardless of where the target arc is until finishing the reload process.

Hope this helps.

Steve-o

[Battlefront.com]

We're overly generous with TOW reloading times. It can take a couple of minutes in real life, even if everything goes right. The missiles have to be manually loaded by a crew member. This is a tricky thing. There's some fantastic video of the problems this raises, though it was with a Stryker ATGM in Mosul. You can probably find it on YouTube if you search for "Stryker" and "Mosul" and "TOW".

The censors for the A3 are on the roof of the turret IIRC.

I doubt you can fire the TOWs when the gun is behind something. Charles probably has the gun and the TOWs tied together for simplicity's sake. Having the vehicle understand two hull down positions vs. one is likely not something he did. But I'm just guessing Plus, I'm not sure how practical that would be in real life anyway.

I'll double check on turret not recentering. That sounds awfully familiar, so I'm guessing if it was a problem (hard to say from the report) it's been fixed long ago. Right after v1.11 came out there was a flurry of very small fixes/tweaks.

Steve

[akd]

Speaking of hull down Bradleys, were y'all able to fix the bug there the TOW launcher goes swinging to the side instead of tilting up or down when the Bradley is on an incline?

[gibsonm]

To respectfully split hairs, the launcher is above the gun, as well as to the side

Well to split some more the launcher is but the sight isn't.

So, a question to those in the know: is it possible to target the Bradley's TOW on the enemy while the gun is below the crest of a hill?

No. because you use the same sight.

Some notes (from FM 7-7J):

Crew Drill 12

ENGAGE TARGETS WITH THE TOW (CREW)

SITUATION: The Bradley crew has identified a target for the TOW

within 3,750 meters.

REQUIRED ACTIONS:

1. Bradley Commander: Commands GUNNER, MISSILE, TANK,

and lays the gun for direction to the target.

2. Gunner: Starts searching for the target as the BC lays the gun.

3. Driver: Halts the vehicle in a hull-down position.

4. Gunner: Selects HIGH MAG and uses the ISU to determine if

the target is engageable.

5. Driver: Checks the vehicle slope indicator to ensure the vehicle

is within the 10-degree slope warning.

6. Gunner: Checks the vehicle slope indicator to ensure the vehicle

is within the 10-degree slope warning. Places the launcher’s UP-DOWN

switch on the TOW control panel to UP.

a. Depresses the gunner’s palm switch to raise the launcher.

b. Depresses the TOW button on the TOW control panel.

c. Selects the missile tube one or two on the TOW control panel.

d. Places the arm-safe-reset switch to ARM.

e. Sights the target, announces, IDENTIFIED, and lays the cross

hairs on the center of target visible mass.

(1) If the gunner announces “Cannot identify,” the BC attempts to

identify and gives further instructions.

(2) If the gunner announces "Lost," the BC gives additional target

location information.

(3) If the gunner announces “Friendly,” the BC gives the new target

description or takes the weapon out of action.

(4) If the gunner announces "Cannot engage,” the BC designates

another target or tells the driver to move the vehicle (for example, “Driver,

back, right, stop”).

7. Bradley Commander: On hearing “Identified,” commands FIRE.

8. Gunner: On hearing “Fire,” announces ON THE WAY, and fires.

[Battlefront.com]

I double checked and there are no known problems with turrets failing to re-recenter for cover arcs. So either Sivodsi ran into something pretty specific, and uncommon, or whatever problem caused it in v1.11 has already been fixed.

AKD,

Yeah, I remember that problem. I'm double checking to make sure it has been fixed. It was a model coding error.

Steve

[Sivodsi]

I double checked and there are no known problems with turrets failing to re-recenter for cover arcs. So either Sivodsi ran into something pretty specific, and uncommon, or whatever problem caused it in v1.11 has already been fixed.

Well, if you're interested, saved PBEM file is available.

[Battlefront.com]

We can't load old saves into the version we're using so it's not possible to test with the current code. Since we're not seeing it with the current code, testing it with v1.11 won't really tell us much.

The only possible thing I can think of is that the Bradley is still trying to track the tank it shot at and had back up out of sight. There is a general WeGo expectation for behavior to line up neatly from turn to turn since, from the player's perspective, gameplay is neatly divided up into 60 second increments. Events in the game generally support this expectation, but it is by coincidence rather than design since the game engine is RealTime. It's quite possible that if you played out another turn without a 2nd tank coming into the arc that your Bradley's turret would have recentered on its own.

That's just a guess, of course. The other guess is that there was some sort of bug in there and it's now fixed. Until someone reports this in v1.20 I'm going to go with it being a fixed bug

Steve

[Sivodsi]

Fair enough. It makes me look forward to 1.2 all the more.

And GibsonM, thanks for the reply, interesting stuff. I did suspect that the gun sights also have the TOW targeting function, but with the physical position of the launcher being above the turret, the potential is there for it to be able to fire without exposing the turret.

[gibsonm]

but with the physical position of the launcher being above the turret, the potential is there for it to be able to fire without exposing the turret.

Only if you bolted on a second sighting system.

As it is now, no you can't.

The vehicle needs to be Hull Down, not Turret Down to engage with TOW and indeed due to the level required (you can't engage +/- 10 degrees [steps 5 and 6 above] - which isn't modelled in CM:SF) the traditional Hull Down (vehicle parked on the reverse slope) is unlikely to result in a TOW engagement anyway.

[c3k]

Having said that, I know some changes were made to vehicles with diverse spotting heights. I honestly don't remember the circumstances. As luck would have it I just asked Charles for an up-to-date fix because I need to brush up on the stuff that was fixed just after v1.11 was released. Normally during testing we only get the NEW fixes, never a cumulative fix list since often times there are contradictions (i.e. a newer fix overrides an older one). When I get it I'll take a look and see if there's something to report.

Steve

Steve,

Hey, man, you've got a lot on your plate. Look, to help out, send me that list of fixes and I'll go ahead and break out all the new v1.2 fixes and then mail it back to you. Or, I could just post it here. Let me know if you want my help...

Ken